How to install an electric "blower" fan...

GeoB said:
Think I saw a hunert fans there that looked like they would fit.

I agree with all you said about the electric fan.  I guess I just thought 'efficient' wasn't the word I would have chosen to describe those advantages.  :-)  But who cares?  Lets go wheelin'!

GeoB
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By the way - I live in Rocklin, CA - about 25 min east of Sacramento... if you ever go wheelin', I'd love to go with you. Just keep in mind, I'm running a 100% stocker right now  ::)
 
I have a Flex-a-Lite universal fan, with the thermostat kit. It's fully automatic, but adjustable. It's shrouded out of the box, and fits the radiator as if it was made for it.

The big difference indeed is off-road. No matter how good the clutch is, at idle and low speed, there is nowhere
near the airflow across the radiator as there is with the electric running full song. I run much cooler on the trail than ever before.

At higher speeds, the electric shuts off due to the fact that airflow across the radiator is sufficient to cool the engine without the fan, which is exactly why the clutch exists in stock form. However, even though the clutch does
disengage, the engine still has a load, as the fan isn't just free-floating. Load is load. Sometimes it's just less.

As for power gains, well, I wasn't looking for them. Power wasn't my issue.

As for which is better, well, I wouldn't switch it back for all the tea in China.

Not to mention, I can get to all of the front of the engine much easier than with the shroud in place as before, which is more important to me than power. Being able to change a belt in crisis with one wrench and a prybar is pretty sweet.

As far as power draw, it's not much. The system, installed as per instruction, DOES NOT use a relay, and only requires a 10 amp fuse. My unscientific testing indicated that the headlights dim more when I turn on the heater fan motor than when the electric cooling fan turns on. As all the electrical items on this vehicle are connected to the battery first, not directly to the alternator, there is no major loss of power when the fan is on, versus off. I placed an amp clamp on the power feed wire to the fan, and when it starts, it draws less than 5 amps, and backs down to 1-2 as soon as it comes to speed, which isn't long. That's not a lot of amperage.

One other advantage to anyone with a body lift is alignment of the fan with the radiator. The electric is attached, so it's a non-issue.

I would, however, like to point out an issue: I don't recommend using a "pusher" fan, or one in front of the radiator. This restricts airflow at high speed, and these fans pull better than they push. You'll have to change the fan clutch studs to clear it, but it will clear on the inboard side of the radiator.

If you run trails or spend a lot of time off-road, moving slowly, I highly recommend this modification.

That's my two cents, and it's for free!
 
jauguston said:
That sounds good although in the case of the Samurai it is not true.  The fan has a thermostat controlled clutch. When the air passing through the radiator is cold the fan is just windmilling taking virtually no energy from the engine. When the air gets hotter the clutch begins to apply more power to the fan. When the air gets hotter than the water thermostat the fan is at a nearly 1 to 1 with engine speed. This type of fan clutch has been in use for many years on many different vehicles. If you try turning the fan blades on your vehicle by hand with the engine shut off and you are easily able to turn the fan you have a thermostat controlled fan clutch. Or your fan belt is REALLY loose (-:

Jim
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you are assuming that the thermo clutch still works well. Mine's 17 years old. It's not running at peak efficency anymore. The clutch was lossy. An electric fan's thermo switch is easyer to replace just that part, and you can also run it when you want to giving a little more choice, which is useful when the thermo swicth is broken or inaccurate (ie under water, just plan broken, just done drag racing.)
 
GeoB said:
The GM alternator doesn't compensate for lost power.  It will consume almost exactly the same amount of energy from the engine as the stock Sammi alternator.
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Until the current load exceeds the capacity of the stock alternator, then it will drain the battery.  The drag from the alternator increases with the current load.  When the current load exceeds the capacity of the stock alt, the GM alternator will continue to produce more current and will have more drag and consume more power from the engine than the stock alternator.
 
flsammyfm said:
Not to mention, I can get to all of the front of the engine much easier than with the shroud in place as before, which is more important to me than power. Being able to change a belt in crisis with one wrench and a prybar is pretty sweet.



I would, however, like to point out an issue: I don't recommend using a "pusher" fan, or one in front of the radiator. This restricts airflow at high speed, and these fans pull better than they push. You'll have to change the fan clutch studs to clear it, but it will clear on the inboard side of the radiator.
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I had placed the fan  in front of radiator, so I kept the space necesary to remove a belt and  yes it could restricts airflow at higher speeds, but at higher speeds I just turn off the fan cuz I don?t need it

Mi fan cost me ?nothing? I guess that was cheap, u don?t need a fancy or an expensive fan system to cool ur car, well that?s IMHO and my experience facts.

If u don?t get what I tried to say that?s because im learning
 
Vagabond said:
The drag from the alternator increases with the current load.
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I've been thinking about this. I don't understand why this would be so. Basically, an alternator has one moving part - that isn't connected to anything. It's only drag is on the pulley, and the bearings inside, and the rotational mass of the coiled wires. There is no mechanical "link" to anything else. It's free spinning electro-magnetic coils. Since there is no mechanical link to anything - how would the drag increse with current load?

Also, it seems to me there would be more drag with the GM alternator, simply because there is more rotating mass... I don't think it would be that big of a difference though.

~J~
 
Jeremiah,

The drag from the alternator is pretty simple. Do you really think the alternator can create energy from mid-air not taking any from the engine but putting energy into the electrical system and the battery? That would be the eighth wonder of the world!

Jim
 
jauguston said:
The drag from the alternator is pretty simple.
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Fantastic - feel free to explain how it works then.


jauguston said:
Do you really think the alternator can create energy from mid-air not taking any from the engine but putting energy into the electrical system and the battery?
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Not at all. I gave three specific examples of where energy will be zapped by the engine. I will quote myself:
"It's only drag is on the pulley, and the bearings inside, and the rotational mass of the coiled wires."

I also gave a bonus refrence to rotating mass differences between the Samurai alternator, and the GM alternator:
"Also, it seems to me there would be more drag with the GM alternator, simply because there is more rotating mass"

Near as I can tell, the alternator works like a reversed electric motor. There's coils surrounding a magnet. When the coils spin around the magnet, an electrical charge is created, and sent into the electrical system. There is only air between the coils and the magnet, so there is no mechanical "link" between current needs (how much amperage the electrical system needs at any given time) and the spinning coils.  So, wouldn't the drag be relational to engine speed (RPM) and rotational mass (coils) - and not the load on the electrical system?

I don't understand how "more current draw" = "greater engine load" if there's nothing but air between the coils and the magnet. I would think Amperage AND load taken from the engine would be a function of rotational weight of the alternator.

~J~
 
A piece that is missing here is that there is a separate terminal going to the rotor.  In the olden days (my generation!) it was labeled 'Field'.  It receives its current from the voltage regulator... I don't know the exact range but it is about from 0v to 12 (or 14)v.  Nominally 12v but seldom right at 12v!  At 12v to the field (which rotates inside the stator coils and is opposite that of a generator) it produces the maximum magnetic field.  Now, at max rpm, or sufficient rpm, it is now capable of producing max current, which depends on the load on it of course.

The stronger magnetic field generates more current when a bundle of wires cuts through the lines of magnetic flux.  This bundle of wires surround the rotor in an automoble alternator.

The backyard mechanic will tell you one test for a bad regulator is to simply start the engine, then throw 12v directly to the F terminal from the battery.  The sudden load will typically STOP an idling engine.

In the old days the generator's full amperage load had to be drawn off the rotor via the heavy brushes.  They wore fast and were not terribly efficient.  Later they decided that if they spun the magnetic field, instead of the wires, the heavy current for the load could be drawn off directly since it wasn't spinning.  The rotor has slip-ring brushes and is capable of passing much less current than the old generators.  But that is OK because the rotor requires much less current to generate the magnetic field.

Many motorcycles rotate an array of magnets instead of an electro-magnet (the rotor in the alternator).  Trouble here is that they can't adjust the amount of current generated.  Nothing for the voltage regulator to do!  So they don't really have one [1].  Oh, there are some work-arounds, but basically they have to throw energy away (see the big heat-sink on the front lower frame of some cycles?) in order to not burn up the battery.

For the student:
Obtain a small DC motor like what comes in toys or erector sets.  Attach two wires to the terminals.  Make sure it rotates easily, is all oiled up or whatever it needs.  Put the two loose stripped ends of the wires into your mouth, on your tongue, but don't let them touch each other.  Gently turn the armature.  Did you feel a tangy tingle?  Flip it faster until you do.  That's what electricity tastes like I guess.  Do I have to say, "Don't do this with 120v AC, kids!"?

OK, now let the wires dangle free.  But not touching each other.  Flip the armature as fast as you can.  Note how long it spins.  Now, put a load on it by connecting the wires together.  IF current were to flow, the student will note that it has to flow through all of the coils in the motor to complete a circuit.  This will take some energy, to force current that far through such little pipes.  Spin the armature as before.  Typically with a free spinning motor (generator) with a load on it, you will see that it will NOT free-wheel near as long after you spin it.  Do it over and over a few times, wires touch, and wires apart.  It should become clear that current flow puts a load on the armature even though there is just air between.  One could put a small light bulb or LED or something in the circuit if you wanna SEE the load.  You are not generating much, so don't expect yer average flashlight bulb to lite up.  You would have to choose the bulb for this purpose.


[1]  oh, the purists will say "What about the Zener diodes? Aren't they voltage regulators?"  Yeah.. but they still bleeds energy off as heat, they can't regulate how much is initially generated.
 
Will I need a relay if I use a fan? I want to put the fan off of an ingnition fuse (maybe an empty spot in the fuse box?) but, I don't want to fry the wiring.
 
if you use a  relay you wont fry any wires, thats the way i have mine, plus the switch of course

http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,29811.0.html
 
All I know is that I installed a GM alternator kit (78amp for approx $150) and a FlexaLite electric "puller" fan kit (model 110 with temp relay) and it made a difference.

The 110 model's install kit almost lines up with all the existing holes from the fan shroud...all you need is longer 6m bolts and shorten the plastic brackets. The fan was about $128 complete (SUMMIT Racing) with adjustable temp relay, wiring, fuse holder with 20amp fuse and easy directions. I mounted the temp control on the  fender brace behind the pass headlight. I cut off the excess studs on the water pump pulley for a neater look...started the engine let the water temp come up to where it normally is...then turn the temp control until the fan came on...and you're done. ;D

Plus when I shut it down the fan runs for a short time to keep air flow thru the radiator. You can add an optional on off master switch if you want total control of the fan. IMO the engine seems a little "snappier" with less drag on it.
 

https://www.helpavetshine.us/help-a-vet-shine
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