Chuck78
Well-known member
I was just going through my notes for my upcoming mTDI swap, & figured I'd share all of this info from lots of searching, on various setups for Land Rover pumps on 1Z/AHU & ALH 1.9TDI engines.
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libbydiesel on 26 Feb, 2019 22:20:
The hub needs to be installed so that the slot in the hub aligns with the hole in the pump when the keyway in the pump shaft is point to the #1 cylinder delivery valve. *****The stock land rover hub is installed 180? out of time (vs.VW methods). In that situation it will still run but will lack power. I don't know that it would be limited to 2100 rpms, though. A good baseline timing spec is then 1.40mm for that pump.
libby December 14, 2019:
http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,46476.0.html
To remove that extra lever on the pump that seems unneeded, I have removed it, tapped the hole to NPT and threaded in an allen plug. What you (fatmobile) propose would also work. That extra lever (if all is adjusted correctly) will reduce the puff of smoke at startup. That is all that it does.
If you want to be precise with the hub, then you could either cut the VW hub to match the larger hole (in the Land Rover pump body for the timing lock pin) or put a small bushing into the hole so it matches the VW hub.
***To install the hub, make sure the shaft keyway is aligned with the delivery valve for the #1 injector, make sure the dial indicator is rising as you turn CW, and when you arrive at the dial indicator setting you desire, lock the pump shaft with the side bolt. With the shaft locked, install the hub with the pin in place and tighten the hub nut. Whenever the pin fits should then equal the dial indicator reading you used previously. I think 1.40mm is a good baseline timing spec for the LR pump. You might want to adjust from there, though. Set to 12? BTDC at idle with the pulse adapter.
Paraphrasing what I have read Libby mention elsewhere:
Using the diesel pulse adapter is the best way to most accurately adjust the pump timing on an engine, as it takes into consideration wear or modifications to the injector settings, as well as internal changes to the pump, camplate swaps, dynamic timing changes, etc. Generally all diesels seem to run best within a half degree or so +/- of 12? BTDC at idle. Alterations to any of the above mentioned injection parts or tuning, or wear and tear, will alter the timing of the start injection event even with the dial indicator set to the suggested baseline for the factory spec on all of the above variables.
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the Land Rover 300TDI injection pump is pretty much ideal for the ALH. It has the correct nose diameter to fit the ALH bracket. You can use the ALH sprocket and hub which will give the correct offset for the timing belt. To mount it, you can run a tap into the three mounting holes at the sprocket end of the pump and use M10 bolts if memory serves. They are larger than the stock ALH bolts but will just barely fit through the holes in the timing cover/bracket. There are a couple of other minor items to address but it is 99% bolt-on and will outperform a stock ALH eTDI out of the box.
(Andrew Libby)
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The hub on the pump,
the part that the timing belt sprocket bolts to,
needs to be the one from the ALH engine. The hub from the Rover application has the wrong offset for the timing belt location as well as other differences.
The slot for the locking pin on the landrover pump is bigger than the one on the ALH pump.
And the hole the pin slides into is bigger.
So I either had to cut the ALH slot wider or put a bushing in the LR pump.
I made a bushing, but don't have a picture of it yet.
I still ended up having to cut the ALH slot deeper because the LR pump hole is lower.
Now if you go back to the first picture,
remember the allen bolt at the front nose area of the pump?
That allen bolt gets removed and a longer bolt goes in the hole.
It's used to lock the pump shaft when it's at 1.43 mm.
With the keyway slot on the shaft pointing towards the #1 injector line's delivery valve, take the dial indicator to it's lowest spot going counter clockwise.
Just like when it's on the car I'd push the car backwards until the dial gauge hits it's lowest spot.
Then turn it clockwise until it reaches 1.40, 1.43, 1.45mm, 1.54mm, whatever your pump's target spec is.
Lock the shaft in place with the allen head bolt hole on the side of the pump near the mainshaft
Lock it there with the alignment pin in the modified hub slot and tighten it down.
Further fine tuning adjustments are done with the sprocket bolts.
Libby: Just to reiterate, you need the shaft keyway pointing toward the #1 delivery valve when you're doing the process. From there you can rotate CCW to zero the gauge.
The first picture also shows how close the alignment pin hole is to the hub,
the sprocket bolts will hit it. About 3/16" needs to be removed.
The pump mounting holes are threaded on the ALH pump.
Not so on the LR pump.
I put 8m1.25 helicoils in the holes.
They felt a little loose, like the holes were slightly too big.
I'm not too worried but will use longer bolts and add nuts on the top 2 bolts.
Andrew suggested I use 10m 1.5 or 1.25 bolts.
I'll try that on the next one.
I made a 12? BTDC mark on the flywheel. (for use with a timing light and a diesel pulse adapter)
Soooo use the short accelerator arm that came with it?
Or see if I can swap to the MK2 cable bracket and lever?
The startup anti-smoking lever is in the way of using the 1.6 accelerator cable bracket, so I removed it.
fatmobile from a later post:
On the top of the pump I used the LR accel lever and spring setup.
I think the LR pump uses the tall bushing like the MK2.
So I think the MK2 accel lever and spring setup would work but I didn't have one to try.
The ball the MK1 and MK2 accel cable snaps to fits the LR lever with a little drilling.
But I might still weld a piece of early adjustable bracket to the end.
Having the cable attach farther from the center
means small movement of the foot moves the lever less.
Might not be as sensitive to movement.
You can use the 1.6 rear pump bracket with 3 of the bolts, or you can drill out the holes for the additional bolts as well, or modify the Land Rover bracket with a little fab work.
(FatMobile on VWVortex)
From photo, for governor mod, replace the middle spring, the shorter spring of the larger diameter 2, with several washers.
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AHU w/Land Rover 300TDI pump:
the AHU pump is small where it goes into the mount.. like any pre AHU pumps... a newer pump ALH aka 99.5+ mk4 style requires a machine shop to open that hole up to about 68mm i think it was.. then from reading requires a few shims to get the gear to line up perfectly with the belt... remember the pulley becomes the adjustment vs turning the pump to do so. mine was machined next day.. and machinest said it was cake too.
for a mk4 style tdi it's almost direct bolt on...
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the pump fits an AAZ bracket which bolts up to the TDI block, you need to weld on a lug for the TB roller or just leave it out. the AHU sprocket fits the LR shaft perfectly too.
the advance springs need swapping to something softer (AAZ?) and they run fine, have a look on vwdiesel.net for my posts as well as others on this subject. getting the timing right is the hardest part.
(RyanP @ TDIClub)
the mk4 pulley has no keyway on the 'holder/flange' so setting it at TDC can be a pain, I'd prefer to use an AHU pulley and just live with the fact that you have to adjust the timing by swinging the pump.
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I've just put one of these pumps on a 1Z.
I used the pump bracket from a 1.9TD T4 transporter van (eurovan to the americans) as I had one laying around. The AAZ bracket I had I'm sure was too small, but now ryanp has mentioned it, I will have to look again. Ryan, was the AAZ a late one with the 2-piece hub by any chance?
I used the 1Z pulley which meant slotting the pump mounting holes so the timing could be set by turning the whole pump.
Timing figures, I started at 1.54mm which is a number I have seen on a few threads and it ran at that setting. However, it was a bit smokey and with some more advance ran perfect
(MarkB_1303 @ TDI Club)
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The bracket was the one with a 2pc hub as far as I remember, at first I got my mates grandad to open up a TDI bracket, but realised this afterwards! I did the same for the first setup I made, slotting the holes. The second one just used a stock AAZ bracket and the Mk4 Golf hub/sprocket but finding TDC would be a pain with no keyway so I sold it all on.
The mk4 pulley fits right on the Rover pump, just needs a key way to make sure its in the right place.
I'd like to see how the pump goes if you open the timing cover up and put a softer spring in, maybe a AAZ one will work?? The governor needs doing as the Land rovers don?t rev well at all.
(RyanP @ TDIClub)
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Whitbread Jun 5, 2016
(a bit different info here stating the ALH 2pc pulley/hub assembly are not quite exactly lined up when installed on the Rover pump, and need some slight machining, first I had read this)
First, the rover pumps are 180 degrees off for cyl 1 timing. Here's what I do; pull the plug on the nose of the pump that will let you insert a locking bolt. Roll the pump 180 clockwise from the stock LR timing pin position, and when you come up to .050" on the dial indicator, tighten the lock bolt. Now your pump is ready to accept a pulley hub timed in the right location.
Second issue is that the LR pulley hub pilot is smaller than the bore in the ALH pulley as you've found out. You really need to get an ALH pulley hub to make this work easily. You'll also need to machine about .075" from the inside mounting face of the ALH pulley and machine about .040" off the alh pulley hub and still probably use 1 8mm washer between the pump bracket and pump to get the belt to track on the pulley correctly.
Third, the pump needs a few adjustments to really shine. I put 2 6mm washers on the high speed gov spring, rotate afc pin to most aggressive ramp, back the star wheel down about 1-1.5 turns, and you can add 1 turn or so preload to the afc screw up top. You'll want to run the fuel screw in a few turns until it hangs rpms on decel, then back it off about 1/3 turn from there.
If you really want to have fun, put an 11mm TDI camplate in it. The stock rover camplate is the same lift as a 10mm tdi camplate, so despite the 11mm head, it's not really fueling hard at all in stock form.
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Jimbote, June 6, 2016:
What Matt Whitbread said above, with a few adendums -
*the rover pump in the pinned position is 180* out from where it should be to run the TDI , in other words number one on the rover is where number four is on the tdi... on my pump i had my buddy daniel machine a stock ALH hub slot to match the rovers slot then i filed the pump sprocket slot so i could insert a 3/8" fine thread bolt as a pump lock pin ... works perfect... as far as machining the sprocket i only had the "bubble" machined off the front for TC (timing cover?) clearance and the belt tracks perfectly without any machining to the hub mounting surface
*ditch the rover hub
*buy an ALH hub & sprocket, and have the slot deepened and widened to match the rover pin hole (for the timing locking pin)
*You'll need to shorten the 3 ALH sprocket bolts so they don't hit the rover seal snout
*either turn the pump 180 and reinstall the ALH hub (as matt stated above) or lock the pump shaft at tdc with an audi flywheel bolt via plug near the nose of pump and rotate the cam plate 180 degrees, what i did and it let me replace the pump head seal at the same time
*have the bubble machined off the front of the ALH sprocket for timing cover clearance
*file or machine the sprocket webbing so the lock pin slot hole is accessible
if you study the injector pipe layout of the rover engine you will indeed see that the # 1 cylinder injector pipe goes to what would be the number four delivery valve on a vw engine ... i understand your method of finding number one on the rover pump and installing an ALH sprocket but we get to the exact same result just different methods... unless you spin the shaft 180 or the cam plate 180 the rover pump will not run a vw engine "out of the box" but will be 180 degrees out of firing sequence with the cylinder you are trying to ignite
the 1Z uses a keyed sprocket which will naturally index the rover pump 180 from it's stock setting ... if you lock the shaft on a rover pump at tdc and remove the hub you will see the keyway is 180 out from an ALH pump, and there is a corresponding divot in the rover pump's seal snout that lines up perfectly with the keyway ... do the same thing with an ALH and both the keyway and mark are 180 opposite from the rover
if you're using 1Z/AHU sprockets then by default you are re-indexing the shaft to the correct position for the vw which is 180 degrees from the rover indexed position .... but if you use an ALH pump hub and lock the rover shaft down at rover tdc before swapping hubs then you will be out 180 degrees every time
easiest and most foolproof way to get the index right is to pin the rover hub at tdc, lock the shaft, remove the rover hub, reinstall the modified ALH hub then flip the camplate ... there is zero guesswork using this method... it helps to file the ALH hub slot deeper and wider as well as the ALH sprocket to accomodate the rover timing pin
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CRSMP5 June 6, 2016:
A 200TDI pump has no anti soot lever that the 300TDI have (this is mentioned above in one of Libby's and Fatmobile's comments)
There is a casting mark for tdc #1 on the rover pump..
If you can turn the pump gear by hand, I require a 22mm wrench to turn them, you have a broken spring set inside the pump.. 200TDI has a very aggressive cam plate vs a 300TDI, and they break springs.. i have one on my shelf in pieces.. waiting on new camplate set or spring set as they not the same between a 200/300. you could turn its hub, no gear, by hand... felt like a 1.6 ip pump..
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mammonista June 21, 2016:
I'm still just the tiniest bit confused as how to find tdc on #1 fuel port on the Land Rover pump shaft, but as I understand it:
- I generally line up the keyway on the shaft with the #1 fuel port on the opposite side of the pump (the #1 fuel port obviously the one that connects via the steel fuel delivery line with the #1 injector).
- Then with a dial indicator zeroed with some preload on it I rotate the shaft a) clockwise until the dial begins to move and then counterclockwise just until it no longer moves and zero it again or b) counter clockwise until it no longer moves and then clockwise and then counter clockwise just until it no longer moves and then zero it again... and then clockwise until it reaches 1.45mm.
- This is where I eventually want the pump when the crank and cam are at TDC on #1 cylinder?
So that when the engine is at TDC on the firing stroke on #1 the pump is at 1.45mm?
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jetfiremuck November 23, 2011:
200TDI pump onto my AHU:
1. Set engine to #1 tdc for crank and on power/firing stroke on camshaft. Remove injection pump and timing belt and pump mount.
2. Have AHU/1Z front pump mount bracket opened to ALH/Rover pump size 68mm or 70mm for new pump.
3. The 200tdi pulley can be used however the face needs to be cut back to clear the timing belt cover. The pulley is a heavy cast pulley with slotted holes for adjustment. There is no slots in the pump body.
4. You need a 12v source for the fuel shut off and a 12v 3psi fuel pump to prime the pump with fuel.
5. Install pump and secure. Leave pump pulley off. Leave injectors to pipes loose. Rotate pump center bolt clockwise and watch the fuel spill from the pipes. It will spit fuel in the firing order. Rotate until #1 spills.
6. Install pulley to pump and install timing belt and belt tensioner.
7. Rotate engine 40 degrees anti clockwise. Remove timing bolt on pump end and install dial indicator. Set with a preload. Rotate engine clockwise until indicator starts to move. Reset indicator to 0 and rotate towards tdc. 40 thou is what worked for me. I needed to rotate pump to get the pump dialled in before tightening the pulley to pump.
The engine started in half a turn, with a small puff of smoke,then settled to a smooth idle.
the reason I had to go do the fuel spill is that the pump on the rover 200tdi sits on the left side of the motor as you face it. The vw is on the right. The timing pin used on the 200tdi and its related setup will be off due to the location of the fuel lines on the 200tdi. So I have to conclude that any 2.0 to 2.5liter Bosch Ve pump from a tdi engine should work if you have the corresponding pulley to adjust. Its much easier to have the pump fixed and adjust the static timing with the slotted drive pulley.
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Whitbread May 16, 2015:
I just put a LR300TDI pump on my AHU in my MK1 Rabbit Pickup so I can give exact info of what I did.
- Bore out pump bracket for larger snout
- I trimmed my 1.6TD throttle cable bracket and tweaked the throttle lever to give me a workable connection. Transferred ball over from 1.6TD pump for cable to snap on to and drilled hole in throttle lever all the way out.
- 10mm eTDI delivery valves
- As for the sprocket hub, some fun things here. The LR timing lock pin locks the pump at cyl #4 TDC, not #1. Found out the hard way haha. The LR pump hub will work with an ALH pulley if you have a lathe. If no lathe, then you must use an ALH pulley hub. To use the LR hub, you'll have to scribe the location, drill and tap an M8 hole (LR hole pattern isn't symmetrical like VW pattern is, have to add one hole. You will use this new hole to time pump at TDC #1 as it ends up being exactly 180* from the notch in the hub), then lathe about .150" off the hub to pulley mating face of the LR hub and lathe about .100" out of the inside of the ALH pulley to get belt offset right. When you cut the pulley hub, make sure to get the pilot bore for the pulley correct for the ALH; the LR pulley uses a smaller center bore. When you face the .150" off the hub, it will give you enough material to make a new pilot for the pulley.
From there, do you standard aneroid pin shaping (or purchase a 1.6TD style boost pin), and tweak fuel screw up a turn or so and drop you idle to match. Mine runs pretty good so far.
An aggressive aftermarket LDA pin or a 1.6TD (non-eco) LDA boost pin, gov spring/mod, and turning up the main fuel screw are the oldest tricks in the book for a VE pump.
Without the ground fuel pin, my rabbit was a pooch compared to an electronic AHU with the same turbo and nozzles and a 10mm pump. If I turned the fuel screw to get the power to where it should be, the rpm would hang on the way down and cause an infinite automatic cruise control condition. So, with ground fuel pin and fuel screw backed out to where it doesn't cause hanging rpms, the power is now where it should be.
The higher your HP/L gets, the nicer eTDI is. For certain applications, mTDI is fine and dandy. It's the route I went myself for my 81 caddy - it's just a driver/hauler. I should about 150hp/250tq with fuel and air as it sits, and it's a hoot to drive. But if you've going for over 200hp like 3 of my tdi's are, the electronics definitely give a much more usable driving character for a high horsepower street vehicle. Sure you can theoretically make the same max power with electronic or mechanical, but the electronic will be far more civilized (in a higher horsepower application).
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Libby May 7, 2015:
Shaping the LDA is different from shimming the governor because it is a step in the wrong direction as far as pump adjustment/adjustability. It makes the pump far less tunable. The LDA pin is (as stock per Bosch) an intentionally eccentric grind that allows you to tailor the boost/fuel curve by rotating to a more aggressive angle for more fuel at higher boost (or less smoke at lower boost) or to a less aggressive angle for the reverse. Once ground you destroy its adjustability. Grind away on the AAZ 'joke' pin, but the LR pin is good stock and adjustable, moreso than you'll likely make it with grinder guesswork.
Whitbread, if you turned the max fuel up to the point where the rpms hung than your idle was set too high. If you ran out of idle adjustment then your accelerator lever to shaft orientation was on the wrong spline.
I have spent a tremendous amount of time tuning injection pumps in general. On any given injection pump for a given max boost pressure if starting from a completely disassembled injection pump without any settings 'saved' (won't idle, max fuel off the map, revs out of control, lda completely out of whack, etc...) it usually takes me 2-3 hours of tuning to get it very well dialed in. Once dialed in to a reasonable tune, adjusting for minor or even significant changes in max boost/power can be done very quickly without any untoward smoke off-boost.
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Whitbread May 7, 2015:
How is the pump un-tuneable now? I still can set the rest position of the pin, set the spring preload with the star wheel, and trim the white plastic spacer if I need further down travel. I'm well aware the pin is eccentrically ground; at the most aggressive ramp angles with the idle screw as low as it can be and fuel screw in as far as it can be without hanging rpms, it wouldn't haze anywhere in the rpm range and was 100% smoke free at wot. EGT's wouldn't even break 800F. A quick throttle snap would give a tiny puff, but that was it. The throttle lever has never been moved from original setting, so I think that's out of any equation there. I took off the TPS and broke the Bosch yellow paint on the nut. And yes, the boost reference line is hooked up to the correct port on the aneroid.
Now, with the pin ground to my liking, rest position and star wheel tweaked, I get a reasonable puff if I snap the throttle, a light haze at WOT, and egts peak at 1050F with MUCH more power. The "funny" driving characteristics I speak of have nothing to do with my "murdered" pin, they're all governor or timing control. My boost vs fuel vs smoke curve is perfectly acceptable. My main gripe is the extreme sensitivity of the throttle at low load/low rpm. It can be really hard to keep it from bucking in such a light vehicle in the first 2 gears. I know the condition would be better if I backed down the fuel screw, but that's not worth the power loss.
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theman53 May 7, 2015:
I think Whitbread's point was that the "throttle" lever was never moved...it needs to be if you are going to get the desired result without grinding your pin.
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Libby May 8, 2015:
The boost pin is for tailoring the boost/fuel map. It is not for adjusting max fuel. The adjustments required for adjusting max fuel are present on the pump in other ways and using the boost pin to accomplish those results will result in a poorly tuned injection pump. "When you want milk it's better to milk your cow rather than your horse." I would describe a ground boost pin as un-tunable because you cannot change the rate of the increase in boost fuel. The other three adjustments you describe (rest position, preload, total movement) just move the map but you are now 'locked in' as far as pin angle and have no way to change the map. With the unground pin, you could adjust the rotation to provide an even amount of fuel increase across the range of boost pressure. If you have too much fuel at higher pressure and too little at low pressure then rotate to be less aggressive - or vice versa. Once you have the boost fuel curve relatively even, then adjust max fuel so that you have the desired amount of haze across the board. If, on the other hand, you have inadequate max fuel and try to compensate by increasing the boost pin angle, if you do reach your desired max fuel that way, the result is an under-fueled/under-powered engine any time you are below max boost.
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"The throttle lever has never been moved from original setting, so I think that's out of any equation there."
I don't see why you would think that adjusting max fuel, governor spring tension, idle, max rpm and grinding the boost pin are all acceptable mods but the accelerator lever to shaft orientation should stay at the stock setting. The lever to shaft orientation adjustment is there for a very good reason and not making use of it severely limits one's ability to increase max fuel and keep the car 'streetable'. If that wasn't an intentional adjustment, the lever would not have splines and would only go on one way. The lever to shaft orientation should always set to the position that allows the desired max fuel and idle but one spline further in rotation and idle backed all the way out will cause the revs to hang and on all stock pumps it is set that way. If you attempt to increase the max fuel any significant amount from stock you must change the accelerator lever to shaft orientation or you get the hanging rpms and the bucking that you describe. If you are stuck on keeping the accelerator to shaft orientation at the stock position you severely limit the pump's max fuel. In fact, you have not maxed out the pump fueling until you have the max fuel screw all the way in bottomed on the pump case (you can even usually remove a couple mm of case material and gain a considerable amount of max fuel). At that point you would likely need to be a couple clicks from stock in order to maintain a decent idle and avoid the jumpy accelerator and bucking you describe. I have actually tuned a couple pumps to the point that the max fuel was bottomed on the case (and the case modified for greater max fuel adjustment) and they still had entirely civilized road manners.
With your description of your pump tuning techniques it is no surprise that you are disappointed with the results. The poor results you describe, however, are not an intrinsic limitation of the mechanical pump to deliver the desired fueling curve but rather a limitation to the techniques you are using in adjustment. I agree that most individuals would have better results having a tuner do a tune on their eTDI rather than attempt to self-tune a mechanical injection pump but that is apples to oranges. Apples to apples is the fact that most individuals would do a crap job in tuning their own ECU and a crap job of tuning their own mechanical pump.
I would add that the stock boost pin position/angle is optimally matched to the spring that is with it. Most often when increasing the boost, the necessary pump adjustments are the max fuel screw, accelerator lever to shaft orientation and idle, and the aneroid is best left alone. When increasing boost significantly it may be desirable to increase the range of the pin's motion and spring pre-load (done most easily through by removing the atmospheric bleed fitting), but otherwise changing the aneroid is typically an act of detuning.
IMO a too-aggressive boost pin angle is actually worse than a too-mild one. With the too aggressive angle, the engine is underfueled at no-boost or low-boost which extends turbo spool times and yet is over-fueled at max boost/max pedal making excessive smoke and excessive EGTs. With a more mild pin slope, you can get a bit of extra fuel at no-boost/low-boost times which can help spool the turbo quickly, but as boost rises, the fuel to air is reduced and the result is low EGTs and no smoke at max boost/max pedal. To me, that is much preferred.
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Libby from the Samba:
If you get the hanging revs, most likely the idle is too high. If you run out of idle adjustment, you can jump a spline on the accelerator to shaft orientation. You want the shaft to rotate clockwise relative the lever. You will then need to turn up the max fuel, but you will be able to get to a higher max fuel and will have quite a bit more idle adjustment available to prevent the hanging revs.
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libbydiesel on 26 Feb, 2019 22:20:
The hub needs to be installed so that the slot in the hub aligns with the hole in the pump when the keyway in the pump shaft is point to the #1 cylinder delivery valve. *****The stock land rover hub is installed 180? out of time (vs.VW methods). In that situation it will still run but will lack power. I don't know that it would be limited to 2100 rpms, though. A good baseline timing spec is then 1.40mm for that pump.
libby December 14, 2019:
http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,46476.0.html
To remove that extra lever on the pump that seems unneeded, I have removed it, tapped the hole to NPT and threaded in an allen plug. What you (fatmobile) propose would also work. That extra lever (if all is adjusted correctly) will reduce the puff of smoke at startup. That is all that it does.
If you want to be precise with the hub, then you could either cut the VW hub to match the larger hole (in the Land Rover pump body for the timing lock pin) or put a small bushing into the hole so it matches the VW hub.
***To install the hub, make sure the shaft keyway is aligned with the delivery valve for the #1 injector, make sure the dial indicator is rising as you turn CW, and when you arrive at the dial indicator setting you desire, lock the pump shaft with the side bolt. With the shaft locked, install the hub with the pin in place and tighten the hub nut. Whenever the pin fits should then equal the dial indicator reading you used previously. I think 1.40mm is a good baseline timing spec for the LR pump. You might want to adjust from there, though. Set to 12? BTDC at idle with the pulse adapter.
Paraphrasing what I have read Libby mention elsewhere:
Using the diesel pulse adapter is the best way to most accurately adjust the pump timing on an engine, as it takes into consideration wear or modifications to the injector settings, as well as internal changes to the pump, camplate swaps, dynamic timing changes, etc. Generally all diesels seem to run best within a half degree or so +/- of 12? BTDC at idle. Alterations to any of the above mentioned injection parts or tuning, or wear and tear, will alter the timing of the start injection event even with the dial indicator set to the suggested baseline for the factory spec on all of the above variables.
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the Land Rover 300TDI injection pump is pretty much ideal for the ALH. It has the correct nose diameter to fit the ALH bracket. You can use the ALH sprocket and hub which will give the correct offset for the timing belt. To mount it, you can run a tap into the three mounting holes at the sprocket end of the pump and use M10 bolts if memory serves. They are larger than the stock ALH bolts but will just barely fit through the holes in the timing cover/bracket. There are a couple of other minor items to address but it is 99% bolt-on and will outperform a stock ALH eTDI out of the box.
(Andrew Libby)
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The hub on the pump,
the part that the timing belt sprocket bolts to,
needs to be the one from the ALH engine. The hub from the Rover application has the wrong offset for the timing belt location as well as other differences.
The slot for the locking pin on the landrover pump is bigger than the one on the ALH pump.
And the hole the pin slides into is bigger.
So I either had to cut the ALH slot wider or put a bushing in the LR pump.
I made a bushing, but don't have a picture of it yet.
I still ended up having to cut the ALH slot deeper because the LR pump hole is lower.
Now if you go back to the first picture,
remember the allen bolt at the front nose area of the pump?
That allen bolt gets removed and a longer bolt goes in the hole.
It's used to lock the pump shaft when it's at 1.43 mm.
With the keyway slot on the shaft pointing towards the #1 injector line's delivery valve, take the dial indicator to it's lowest spot going counter clockwise.
Just like when it's on the car I'd push the car backwards until the dial gauge hits it's lowest spot.
Then turn it clockwise until it reaches 1.40, 1.43, 1.45mm, 1.54mm, whatever your pump's target spec is.
Lock the shaft in place with the allen head bolt hole on the side of the pump near the mainshaft
Lock it there with the alignment pin in the modified hub slot and tighten it down.
Further fine tuning adjustments are done with the sprocket bolts.
Libby: Just to reiterate, you need the shaft keyway pointing toward the #1 delivery valve when you're doing the process. From there you can rotate CCW to zero the gauge.
The first picture also shows how close the alignment pin hole is to the hub,
the sprocket bolts will hit it. About 3/16" needs to be removed.
The pump mounting holes are threaded on the ALH pump.
Not so on the LR pump.
I put 8m1.25 helicoils in the holes.
They felt a little loose, like the holes were slightly too big.
I'm not too worried but will use longer bolts and add nuts on the top 2 bolts.
Andrew suggested I use 10m 1.5 or 1.25 bolts.
I'll try that on the next one.
I made a 12? BTDC mark on the flywheel. (for use with a timing light and a diesel pulse adapter)
Soooo use the short accelerator arm that came with it?
Or see if I can swap to the MK2 cable bracket and lever?
The startup anti-smoking lever is in the way of using the 1.6 accelerator cable bracket, so I removed it.
fatmobile from a later post:
On the top of the pump I used the LR accel lever and spring setup.
I think the LR pump uses the tall bushing like the MK2.
So I think the MK2 accel lever and spring setup would work but I didn't have one to try.
The ball the MK1 and MK2 accel cable snaps to fits the LR lever with a little drilling.
But I might still weld a piece of early adjustable bracket to the end.
Having the cable attach farther from the center
means small movement of the foot moves the lever less.
Might not be as sensitive to movement.
You can use the 1.6 rear pump bracket with 3 of the bolts, or you can drill out the holes for the additional bolts as well, or modify the Land Rover bracket with a little fab work.
(FatMobile on VWVortex)
From photo, for governor mod, replace the middle spring, the shorter spring of the larger diameter 2, with several washers.
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AHU w/Land Rover 300TDI pump:
the AHU pump is small where it goes into the mount.. like any pre AHU pumps... a newer pump ALH aka 99.5+ mk4 style requires a machine shop to open that hole up to about 68mm i think it was.. then from reading requires a few shims to get the gear to line up perfectly with the belt... remember the pulley becomes the adjustment vs turning the pump to do so. mine was machined next day.. and machinest said it was cake too.
for a mk4 style tdi it's almost direct bolt on...
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the pump fits an AAZ bracket which bolts up to the TDI block, you need to weld on a lug for the TB roller or just leave it out. the AHU sprocket fits the LR shaft perfectly too.
the advance springs need swapping to something softer (AAZ?) and they run fine, have a look on vwdiesel.net for my posts as well as others on this subject. getting the timing right is the hardest part.
(RyanP @ TDIClub)
the mk4 pulley has no keyway on the 'holder/flange' so setting it at TDC can be a pain, I'd prefer to use an AHU pulley and just live with the fact that you have to adjust the timing by swinging the pump.
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I've just put one of these pumps on a 1Z.
I used the pump bracket from a 1.9TD T4 transporter van (eurovan to the americans) as I had one laying around. The AAZ bracket I had I'm sure was too small, but now ryanp has mentioned it, I will have to look again. Ryan, was the AAZ a late one with the 2-piece hub by any chance?
I used the 1Z pulley which meant slotting the pump mounting holes so the timing could be set by turning the whole pump.
Timing figures, I started at 1.54mm which is a number I have seen on a few threads and it ran at that setting. However, it was a bit smokey and with some more advance ran perfect
(MarkB_1303 @ TDI Club)
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The bracket was the one with a 2pc hub as far as I remember, at first I got my mates grandad to open up a TDI bracket, but realised this afterwards! I did the same for the first setup I made, slotting the holes. The second one just used a stock AAZ bracket and the Mk4 Golf hub/sprocket but finding TDC would be a pain with no keyway so I sold it all on.
The mk4 pulley fits right on the Rover pump, just needs a key way to make sure its in the right place.
I'd like to see how the pump goes if you open the timing cover up and put a softer spring in, maybe a AAZ one will work?? The governor needs doing as the Land rovers don?t rev well at all.
(RyanP @ TDIClub)
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Whitbread Jun 5, 2016
(a bit different info here stating the ALH 2pc pulley/hub assembly are not quite exactly lined up when installed on the Rover pump, and need some slight machining, first I had read this)
First, the rover pumps are 180 degrees off for cyl 1 timing. Here's what I do; pull the plug on the nose of the pump that will let you insert a locking bolt. Roll the pump 180 clockwise from the stock LR timing pin position, and when you come up to .050" on the dial indicator, tighten the lock bolt. Now your pump is ready to accept a pulley hub timed in the right location.
Second issue is that the LR pulley hub pilot is smaller than the bore in the ALH pulley as you've found out. You really need to get an ALH pulley hub to make this work easily. You'll also need to machine about .075" from the inside mounting face of the ALH pulley and machine about .040" off the alh pulley hub and still probably use 1 8mm washer between the pump bracket and pump to get the belt to track on the pulley correctly.
Third, the pump needs a few adjustments to really shine. I put 2 6mm washers on the high speed gov spring, rotate afc pin to most aggressive ramp, back the star wheel down about 1-1.5 turns, and you can add 1 turn or so preload to the afc screw up top. You'll want to run the fuel screw in a few turns until it hangs rpms on decel, then back it off about 1/3 turn from there.
If you really want to have fun, put an 11mm TDI camplate in it. The stock rover camplate is the same lift as a 10mm tdi camplate, so despite the 11mm head, it's not really fueling hard at all in stock form.
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Jimbote, June 6, 2016:
What Matt Whitbread said above, with a few adendums -
*the rover pump in the pinned position is 180* out from where it should be to run the TDI , in other words number one on the rover is where number four is on the tdi... on my pump i had my buddy daniel machine a stock ALH hub slot to match the rovers slot then i filed the pump sprocket slot so i could insert a 3/8" fine thread bolt as a pump lock pin ... works perfect... as far as machining the sprocket i only had the "bubble" machined off the front for TC (timing cover?) clearance and the belt tracks perfectly without any machining to the hub mounting surface
*ditch the rover hub
*buy an ALH hub & sprocket, and have the slot deepened and widened to match the rover pin hole (for the timing locking pin)
*You'll need to shorten the 3 ALH sprocket bolts so they don't hit the rover seal snout
*either turn the pump 180 and reinstall the ALH hub (as matt stated above) or lock the pump shaft at tdc with an audi flywheel bolt via plug near the nose of pump and rotate the cam plate 180 degrees, what i did and it let me replace the pump head seal at the same time
*have the bubble machined off the front of the ALH sprocket for timing cover clearance
*file or machine the sprocket webbing so the lock pin slot hole is accessible
if you study the injector pipe layout of the rover engine you will indeed see that the # 1 cylinder injector pipe goes to what would be the number four delivery valve on a vw engine ... i understand your method of finding number one on the rover pump and installing an ALH sprocket but we get to the exact same result just different methods... unless you spin the shaft 180 or the cam plate 180 the rover pump will not run a vw engine "out of the box" but will be 180 degrees out of firing sequence with the cylinder you are trying to ignite
the 1Z uses a keyed sprocket which will naturally index the rover pump 180 from it's stock setting ... if you lock the shaft on a rover pump at tdc and remove the hub you will see the keyway is 180 out from an ALH pump, and there is a corresponding divot in the rover pump's seal snout that lines up perfectly with the keyway ... do the same thing with an ALH and both the keyway and mark are 180 opposite from the rover
if you're using 1Z/AHU sprockets then by default you are re-indexing the shaft to the correct position for the vw which is 180 degrees from the rover indexed position .... but if you use an ALH pump hub and lock the rover shaft down at rover tdc before swapping hubs then you will be out 180 degrees every time
easiest and most foolproof way to get the index right is to pin the rover hub at tdc, lock the shaft, remove the rover hub, reinstall the modified ALH hub then flip the camplate ... there is zero guesswork using this method... it helps to file the ALH hub slot deeper and wider as well as the ALH sprocket to accomodate the rover timing pin
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CRSMP5 June 6, 2016:
A 200TDI pump has no anti soot lever that the 300TDI have (this is mentioned above in one of Libby's and Fatmobile's comments)
There is a casting mark for tdc #1 on the rover pump..
If you can turn the pump gear by hand, I require a 22mm wrench to turn them, you have a broken spring set inside the pump.. 200TDI has a very aggressive cam plate vs a 300TDI, and they break springs.. i have one on my shelf in pieces.. waiting on new camplate set or spring set as they not the same between a 200/300. you could turn its hub, no gear, by hand... felt like a 1.6 ip pump..
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mammonista June 21, 2016:
I'm still just the tiniest bit confused as how to find tdc on #1 fuel port on the Land Rover pump shaft, but as I understand it:
- I generally line up the keyway on the shaft with the #1 fuel port on the opposite side of the pump (the #1 fuel port obviously the one that connects via the steel fuel delivery line with the #1 injector).
- Then with a dial indicator zeroed with some preload on it I rotate the shaft a) clockwise until the dial begins to move and then counterclockwise just until it no longer moves and zero it again or b) counter clockwise until it no longer moves and then clockwise and then counter clockwise just until it no longer moves and then zero it again... and then clockwise until it reaches 1.45mm.
- This is where I eventually want the pump when the crank and cam are at TDC on #1 cylinder?
So that when the engine is at TDC on the firing stroke on #1 the pump is at 1.45mm?
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jetfiremuck November 23, 2011:
200TDI pump onto my AHU:
1. Set engine to #1 tdc for crank and on power/firing stroke on camshaft. Remove injection pump and timing belt and pump mount.
2. Have AHU/1Z front pump mount bracket opened to ALH/Rover pump size 68mm or 70mm for new pump.
3. The 200tdi pulley can be used however the face needs to be cut back to clear the timing belt cover. The pulley is a heavy cast pulley with slotted holes for adjustment. There is no slots in the pump body.
4. You need a 12v source for the fuel shut off and a 12v 3psi fuel pump to prime the pump with fuel.
5. Install pump and secure. Leave pump pulley off. Leave injectors to pipes loose. Rotate pump center bolt clockwise and watch the fuel spill from the pipes. It will spit fuel in the firing order. Rotate until #1 spills.
6. Install pulley to pump and install timing belt and belt tensioner.
7. Rotate engine 40 degrees anti clockwise. Remove timing bolt on pump end and install dial indicator. Set with a preload. Rotate engine clockwise until indicator starts to move. Reset indicator to 0 and rotate towards tdc. 40 thou is what worked for me. I needed to rotate pump to get the pump dialled in before tightening the pulley to pump.
The engine started in half a turn, with a small puff of smoke,then settled to a smooth idle.
the reason I had to go do the fuel spill is that the pump on the rover 200tdi sits on the left side of the motor as you face it. The vw is on the right. The timing pin used on the 200tdi and its related setup will be off due to the location of the fuel lines on the 200tdi. So I have to conclude that any 2.0 to 2.5liter Bosch Ve pump from a tdi engine should work if you have the corresponding pulley to adjust. Its much easier to have the pump fixed and adjust the static timing with the slotted drive pulley.
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Whitbread May 16, 2015:
I just put a LR300TDI pump on my AHU in my MK1 Rabbit Pickup so I can give exact info of what I did.
- Bore out pump bracket for larger snout
- I trimmed my 1.6TD throttle cable bracket and tweaked the throttle lever to give me a workable connection. Transferred ball over from 1.6TD pump for cable to snap on to and drilled hole in throttle lever all the way out.
- 10mm eTDI delivery valves
- As for the sprocket hub, some fun things here. The LR timing lock pin locks the pump at cyl #4 TDC, not #1. Found out the hard way haha. The LR pump hub will work with an ALH pulley if you have a lathe. If no lathe, then you must use an ALH pulley hub. To use the LR hub, you'll have to scribe the location, drill and tap an M8 hole (LR hole pattern isn't symmetrical like VW pattern is, have to add one hole. You will use this new hole to time pump at TDC #1 as it ends up being exactly 180* from the notch in the hub), then lathe about .150" off the hub to pulley mating face of the LR hub and lathe about .100" out of the inside of the ALH pulley to get belt offset right. When you cut the pulley hub, make sure to get the pilot bore for the pulley correct for the ALH; the LR pulley uses a smaller center bore. When you face the .150" off the hub, it will give you enough material to make a new pilot for the pulley.
From there, do you standard aneroid pin shaping (or purchase a 1.6TD style boost pin), and tweak fuel screw up a turn or so and drop you idle to match. Mine runs pretty good so far.
An aggressive aftermarket LDA pin or a 1.6TD (non-eco) LDA boost pin, gov spring/mod, and turning up the main fuel screw are the oldest tricks in the book for a VE pump.
Without the ground fuel pin, my rabbit was a pooch compared to an electronic AHU with the same turbo and nozzles and a 10mm pump. If I turned the fuel screw to get the power to where it should be, the rpm would hang on the way down and cause an infinite automatic cruise control condition. So, with ground fuel pin and fuel screw backed out to where it doesn't cause hanging rpms, the power is now where it should be.
The higher your HP/L gets, the nicer eTDI is. For certain applications, mTDI is fine and dandy. It's the route I went myself for my 81 caddy - it's just a driver/hauler. I should about 150hp/250tq with fuel and air as it sits, and it's a hoot to drive. But if you've going for over 200hp like 3 of my tdi's are, the electronics definitely give a much more usable driving character for a high horsepower street vehicle. Sure you can theoretically make the same max power with electronic or mechanical, but the electronic will be far more civilized (in a higher horsepower application).
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Libby May 7, 2015:
Shaping the LDA is different from shimming the governor because it is a step in the wrong direction as far as pump adjustment/adjustability. It makes the pump far less tunable. The LDA pin is (as stock per Bosch) an intentionally eccentric grind that allows you to tailor the boost/fuel curve by rotating to a more aggressive angle for more fuel at higher boost (or less smoke at lower boost) or to a less aggressive angle for the reverse. Once ground you destroy its adjustability. Grind away on the AAZ 'joke' pin, but the LR pin is good stock and adjustable, moreso than you'll likely make it with grinder guesswork.
Whitbread, if you turned the max fuel up to the point where the rpms hung than your idle was set too high. If you ran out of idle adjustment then your accelerator lever to shaft orientation was on the wrong spline.
I have spent a tremendous amount of time tuning injection pumps in general. On any given injection pump for a given max boost pressure if starting from a completely disassembled injection pump without any settings 'saved' (won't idle, max fuel off the map, revs out of control, lda completely out of whack, etc...) it usually takes me 2-3 hours of tuning to get it very well dialed in. Once dialed in to a reasonable tune, adjusting for minor or even significant changes in max boost/power can be done very quickly without any untoward smoke off-boost.
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Whitbread May 7, 2015:
How is the pump un-tuneable now? I still can set the rest position of the pin, set the spring preload with the star wheel, and trim the white plastic spacer if I need further down travel. I'm well aware the pin is eccentrically ground; at the most aggressive ramp angles with the idle screw as low as it can be and fuel screw in as far as it can be without hanging rpms, it wouldn't haze anywhere in the rpm range and was 100% smoke free at wot. EGT's wouldn't even break 800F. A quick throttle snap would give a tiny puff, but that was it. The throttle lever has never been moved from original setting, so I think that's out of any equation there. I took off the TPS and broke the Bosch yellow paint on the nut. And yes, the boost reference line is hooked up to the correct port on the aneroid.
Now, with the pin ground to my liking, rest position and star wheel tweaked, I get a reasonable puff if I snap the throttle, a light haze at WOT, and egts peak at 1050F with MUCH more power. The "funny" driving characteristics I speak of have nothing to do with my "murdered" pin, they're all governor or timing control. My boost vs fuel vs smoke curve is perfectly acceptable. My main gripe is the extreme sensitivity of the throttle at low load/low rpm. It can be really hard to keep it from bucking in such a light vehicle in the first 2 gears. I know the condition would be better if I backed down the fuel screw, but that's not worth the power loss.
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theman53 May 7, 2015:
I think Whitbread's point was that the "throttle" lever was never moved...it needs to be if you are going to get the desired result without grinding your pin.
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Libby May 8, 2015:
The boost pin is for tailoring the boost/fuel map. It is not for adjusting max fuel. The adjustments required for adjusting max fuel are present on the pump in other ways and using the boost pin to accomplish those results will result in a poorly tuned injection pump. "When you want milk it's better to milk your cow rather than your horse." I would describe a ground boost pin as un-tunable because you cannot change the rate of the increase in boost fuel. The other three adjustments you describe (rest position, preload, total movement) just move the map but you are now 'locked in' as far as pin angle and have no way to change the map. With the unground pin, you could adjust the rotation to provide an even amount of fuel increase across the range of boost pressure. If you have too much fuel at higher pressure and too little at low pressure then rotate to be less aggressive - or vice versa. Once you have the boost fuel curve relatively even, then adjust max fuel so that you have the desired amount of haze across the board. If, on the other hand, you have inadequate max fuel and try to compensate by increasing the boost pin angle, if you do reach your desired max fuel that way, the result is an under-fueled/under-powered engine any time you are below max boost.
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"The throttle lever has never been moved from original setting, so I think that's out of any equation there."
I don't see why you would think that adjusting max fuel, governor spring tension, idle, max rpm and grinding the boost pin are all acceptable mods but the accelerator lever to shaft orientation should stay at the stock setting. The lever to shaft orientation adjustment is there for a very good reason and not making use of it severely limits one's ability to increase max fuel and keep the car 'streetable'. If that wasn't an intentional adjustment, the lever would not have splines and would only go on one way. The lever to shaft orientation should always set to the position that allows the desired max fuel and idle but one spline further in rotation and idle backed all the way out will cause the revs to hang and on all stock pumps it is set that way. If you attempt to increase the max fuel any significant amount from stock you must change the accelerator lever to shaft orientation or you get the hanging rpms and the bucking that you describe. If you are stuck on keeping the accelerator to shaft orientation at the stock position you severely limit the pump's max fuel. In fact, you have not maxed out the pump fueling until you have the max fuel screw all the way in bottomed on the pump case (you can even usually remove a couple mm of case material and gain a considerable amount of max fuel). At that point you would likely need to be a couple clicks from stock in order to maintain a decent idle and avoid the jumpy accelerator and bucking you describe. I have actually tuned a couple pumps to the point that the max fuel was bottomed on the case (and the case modified for greater max fuel adjustment) and they still had entirely civilized road manners.
With your description of your pump tuning techniques it is no surprise that you are disappointed with the results. The poor results you describe, however, are not an intrinsic limitation of the mechanical pump to deliver the desired fueling curve but rather a limitation to the techniques you are using in adjustment. I agree that most individuals would have better results having a tuner do a tune on their eTDI rather than attempt to self-tune a mechanical injection pump but that is apples to oranges. Apples to apples is the fact that most individuals would do a crap job in tuning their own ECU and a crap job of tuning their own mechanical pump.
I would add that the stock boost pin position/angle is optimally matched to the spring that is with it. Most often when increasing the boost, the necessary pump adjustments are the max fuel screw, accelerator lever to shaft orientation and idle, and the aneroid is best left alone. When increasing boost significantly it may be desirable to increase the range of the pin's motion and spring pre-load (done most easily through by removing the atmospheric bleed fitting), but otherwise changing the aneroid is typically an act of detuning.
IMO a too-aggressive boost pin angle is actually worse than a too-mild one. With the too aggressive angle, the engine is underfueled at no-boost or low-boost which extends turbo spool times and yet is over-fueled at max boost/max pedal making excessive smoke and excessive EGTs. With a more mild pin slope, you can get a bit of extra fuel at no-boost/low-boost times which can help spool the turbo quickly, but as boost rises, the fuel to air is reduced and the result is low EGTs and no smoke at max boost/max pedal. To me, that is much preferred.
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Libby from the Samba:
If you get the hanging revs, most likely the idle is too high. If you run out of idle adjustment, you can jump a spline on the accelerator to shaft orientation. You want the shaft to rotate clockwise relative the lever. You will then need to turn up the max fuel, but you will be able to get to a higher max fuel and will have quite a bit more idle adjustment available to prevent the hanging revs.
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