Author Topic: IFS long travel - it can be done  (Read 21430 times)

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Offline Jeremiah

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Mike Hagen made an IFS Kick with an impressive 15" of front travel (I think this is up-travel only, and not even including down travel). I'm still learning a lot about suspension, and I got my hands on a welder now, so I'd like to look into build something similar to this:




"I can lift one tire 37 inches while keeping the others on the ground"



Full article is at zukiworld.com, but I've still got a lot of questions after reading it.

* How did he modify the front anvil (diff) with the shorter axle?
* What springs is he using?
* What's the "dump turck" metal he made the lower arms from? What are the dimensions?
* How did he create the "cantilever" style idler?
* How did he create the adjustment to raise / lower the suspension by 12"?

Please keep the "SAS is better" stuff in other posts, and don't clutter this Tech Thread with it. IFS does have it's advantages, and it can do just fine for my purposes in the rocks:



He's running 39.5" tires, but I'm wanting to build mine around 35 or 37" tires (as they work perfectly with the dual-case gearing from RockRat). Articles on this rig:
http://www.zukiworld.com/month_050106/feature_hagen-newfrontend.htm
http://www.izook.com/features/kickin/kickin.htm
1983 SJ410, 1.3L SPOA on 31"
1996 4 door, 235/75/15 Dakota M/T, OME 1.5" Lift
1996 Geo Prizm
2008 Yamaha FZ6

Offline X-jeeper

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wow..thats awesome!
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Offline Whitfield

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His stock lowers are now his uppers.

Offline Whitfield

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2 different trucks...

one has a second frame piece dropped down and welded in place (THe rockstar buggy ~ unlss he has revised it..

the other is his DOT legal trailrig that got teh dual a-arm mod


Mikes anvil was a custom 1-off from Cal mini.

First I've seen his new steering.   Definatly different but durable.   Usually lifted IFS steering suufferes from up and down deflection due to lift height (wheel height v/s steering box height).  His new steering eleminates up and down movement making for much more percise steering.

His springs are Dirt track racing stuff (CHeap & Popular) (Probally for a 70's GM A-arm car) 

Generally IFS spring rates are around 500 PPi (Pounds per inch)  Think older Ford Ranger / Explorer ~ That is where my 8" SideKick lift coils came from. 

Mike is a visionary in Extreeme Suzuki IFS building he is also an Auto Tech by trade.  He has many years of experience wheeling building breaking and wrenching on Kicks.  He beats the crap out of his rig on a regular basis.   In 2002 I believe he was on 32's and drove to the Melt from home.  His stock appearing IFS rig (Black 2-dr Track/Kick) out performed most of the Sammys on similar tire size.     

Keep an eye out for Rock rats new IFS lift kit, it should be a simpler lift with great versatility.
« Last Edit: Wednesday, December 17, 2008, 10:09:11 PM by Whitfield »

Offline jawzuki

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Wow I need that set up on my Sidekick 8)

Offline Jeremiah

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Whitfield, thanks for the heads up & tech. Mike Hagen's builds & innovation are legendary ;D I didn't realize they were two different trucks, but I'm definitely interested in the long-travel dual A-arm setup (moving to shocks, and away from aftermarket strut limitations). I think his new uppers are actually Calmini lowers from their 3" lift kit? If they're the stockers, though - that would be sweet - makes my life easier.

I thought the Calmini diff was modified by him? If not, can I replicate it by cutting down the 'long side' axle, and re-welding it to the anvil? I'm thinking maybe do this with a steel front off a Toyota: Opens up the gearing & locker options, replaces the weak aluminum diff with a steel one, and should make bolting up Toy CVs much easier. Maybe I can find someone doing toy SAS swap and get their front-end components to play with?

I need to figure out what to do about the steering still - I'm reading in some dessert-running boards how they do their IFS, but I'm pretty confused right now trying to learn all the new terminology. Should 500ppi springs work even with a 4-door, bull bumper & winch, or should I go to a higher rate? I like RockRat's work, and am looking forward to his lift, but he's saying it won't provide any additional flex. 37" tires with stock flex just won't do. I want to have something that can keep up with most SAS in rocks, but do better than SAS in sand, jumps & on-road.
1983 SJ410, 1.3L SPOA on 31"
1996 4 door, 235/75/15 Dakota M/T, OME 1.5" Lift
1996 Geo Prizm
2008 Yamaha FZ6

Offline † Ţanzer †

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cool , my son and i are in that picture ;D

Offline Truckasaurus44

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I believe his custom anvil is the same as the normal unit except the long side is replaced with a second short side.  You may want to look into a rear diff out of a late model T-bird.  I believe its basicly just a pumpkin with two outputs and no added width.  The diff is basically a D44 if I'm not mistaken, but I'm not really sure on that.  Probably stronger than any zuke diff and probably more gearing and locker options.  Only prob is its bigger too, but with all the customizing you'll be doing, that may not be a big deal.

Hagen's uppers are calmini 3" kit lowers, but you could probably use stock lowers.  Only thing is they are shorter and not a cool looking.  Does anyone know how his stock Zuke front wheel bearings/steering knuckles are holding up to those huge tires?  Or are they even stock? 
You want to make God laugh?  Tell him your plans.

Offline Jeremiah

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Here's some good info about axle narrowing / widening: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48833&highlight=TOTW
1983 SJ410, 1.3L SPOA on 31"
1996 4 door, 235/75/15 Dakota M/T, OME 1.5" Lift
1996 Geo Prizm
2008 Yamaha FZ6

Offline cj

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Don't forget that to use a centered front diff he also had to lift the engine a bit.

Offline Jeremiah

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I was looking at that last night. Wasn't sure if it was better to lift the engine (higher CG) or drop the diff a little (less clearance, but better CV angles) - I have to make some kind of custom 'cradle' anyway. Anyone know how well those Toyota CV's were doing? From the way the article reads, it sounds like Mike Hagen experienced enough CV breakage to engineer the lift to allow for quick trail-changing of the 1/2 shafts.
1983 SJ410, 1.3L SPOA on 31"
1996 4 door, 235/75/15 Dakota M/T, OME 1.5" Lift
1996 Geo Prizm
2008 Yamaha FZ6

Offline Uncivilized

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Don't forget that to use a centered front diff he also had to lift the engine a bit.
He lifted the engine 3" using 3"x3" box tube. A body lift is necessary to do this.
As Whitfield said, Mike is a Tech, and main focus in suspension. He has access to some very advanced tools. This isn't a build for an avarage do it yourself at home mechanic, you'll need knowledge in suspension geometry and design.. it's more advanced than SAS(not recommending ;) )

2 different trucks...

one has a second frame piece dropped down and welded in place (THe rockstar buggy ~ unlss he has revised it..

the other is his DOT legal trailrig that got teh dual a-arm mod
The two rigs were actually combined after a roll over on the original daily driver. He cut off the new front suspension, the rear 9" and fabricated them into the Rockstar.

Jeremiah, PM me, I have something you might be interested in ;)

Dave

Offline Jeremiah

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Does he have any other build threads for these rigs?
1983 SJ410, 1.3L SPOA on 31"
1996 4 door, 235/75/15 Dakota M/T, OME 1.5" Lift
1996 Geo Prizm
2008 Yamaha FZ6

Offline BRD HNTR

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I am converting a Samuria rear end to a Tracker front housing.  It was not that hard to do.  I wish that this thread would have been running when I started my conversion, as long travel CV's would have better.
My new steel Tracker front housing on the right, aluminum on the left.


I just got the machined diff back today.  Hope to install it next weekend.

Offline Jeremiah

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How much did the machine shop charge you to chop that little guy up?
1983 SJ410, 1.3L SPOA on 31"
1996 4 door, 235/75/15 Dakota M/T, OME 1.5" Lift
1996 Geo Prizm
2008 Yamaha FZ6

Offline Uncivilized

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I am converting a Samuria rear end to a Tracker front housing.  It was not that hard to do.  I wish that this thread would have been running when I started my conversion, as long travel CV's would have better.
My new steel Tracker front housing on the right, aluminum on the left.
Yeah, you could make a center mount diff out of that

Offline BRD HNTR

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How much did the machine shop charge you to chop that little guy up?

I used my cutoff saw, a 4 1/2" portable grinder, and a wire feed.  I am using the samurai bearing and a special order seal on the long side, and a Tracker seal for the short side.  I traded for the machine work on the samurai diff so the (larger) right side CV will slide into the diff.   (Should have used another bearing and had a long side shaft turned and welded to use short CV's on both sides.  Then I would not have to had diff machined.)  I have a few more photos, but this part of the build went fast.
 

Offline Whitfield

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I like it.  IFS Hybrid~ 

>>>Samurai bearing and a special order seal on the long side

>>>Tracker seal for the short side.


Any more info an pics? 

I have heard of a few folks using Kick rears to make a Hybrid steel front.  Sounds like overkill as yours should work just fine.

The sammy diff with it's oil well beneath the pinion does not clear the Sidekick frame member.  Not a BIG deal, but their is still more work to be done.

« Last Edit: Monday, January 05, 2009, 10:32:36 PM by Whitfield »

Offline j2custom

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I believe Mike's is a 9" centersection but I am not 100% sure.
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Offline Bass Man

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Hagen used "a home built narrowed tracker 7.5-inch rear end with a locker" in his famous black Track/kick.
http://www.zukiworld.com/month_020103/feature_frontendupgradeswithhagen.htm


But from the looks of it, it doesn't look like a rear differencial.