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Topic: Need EXPERT opinion on 98 1.6 16V Engine issue..... (Read 10794 times) previous topic - next topic

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  • GeorgeD
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Re: Need EXPERT opinion on 98 1.6 16V Engine issue.....
Reply #40
Here's the latest on fixing this Tracker. Finally found out that the firing was a little weak so put on new distributor cap. Next gas really old. Pulled gas tank, if was full of NASTY gas & built up scum, fuel pump was a big gob of black goo & needless to say it didn't;t work. Tried cleaning out the tank but it is pretty nasty & I was in a hurry so I pilled the tank of a parts car I have. Got lucky, nice & clean & fuel pump works fine. Put new tank on got good clean gas up to the injector bar but nothing coming through injectors. Pulled injectors & they were very dirty. I ran them through my ultrasonic cleaner for a couple hours & now the appear to be clean as new, at least what you can see of them. Went to parts store to get new orings for the injectors & a couple gaskets, Just my luck all of the parts are dealer only parts/ I going out of town tomorrow so I guess I will get to work on it when I get back in town. It's been a long road but I hope that it will be running soon. Thanks to everyone who have helped me along the way.

GeorgeD in WV
WANTED: Suzuki Samurais in any condition within a 100 mile radius of Hurricane, WV 25526 --- Maybe a little farther depending on what you have ;)

  • jtgh
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Re: Need EXPERT opinion on 98 1.6 16V Engine issue.....
Reply #41
suzuki has them all , all the parts.
and some are pretty cheap.

but id get a used pump if price is really important.

no vin, no ecu pn.
if we had full data, the problem gets way easier.


https://www.trademotion.com/partlocator/index.cfm?siteid=214330

if you dont see the part in the dwgs or lists, ask kieth.  they have them all or can get them out of the Suz warehouse in 3 days or less.
the cog wheel is like $20  ,  as an example.

cheers
retired mech older than dirt.


  • GeorgeD
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Re: Need EXPERT opinion on 98 1.6 16V Engine issue.....
Reply #43
Thanks for the website. I haven't seen that one & I can see where it will come in handy in the future. Right now I need a set of o-rings for the injectors. The website has the injectors at $170.00 ea. I'm not interested in spending that much on injectors, I could buy a complete running engine for that kind of money.

I ultrasonically cleaned the injectors & they look great but I can't say for sure if they will work because I can't see inside them.

Do you know of anyone who can test or rebuild these injectors. 98 1.6 16V engine?

Thanks,
GeorgeD
WANTED: Suzuki Samurais in any condition within a 100 mile radius of Hurricane, WV 25526 --- Maybe a little farther depending on what you have ;)

  • jtgh
  • [*][*][*][*]
Re: Need EXPERT opinion on 98 1.6 16V Engine issue.....
Reply #44
yes, and the orings and cushions are a pain, and suzuki does not sell a kit , on 1 silly part at a time,  x8 total.  $$$$$$
so i made a page to heap.

after market has them.  but in many forms.
my seal page.

http://carfix.stufftoread.com/INJECTORS/new-seals/seals.html


go to witchhunter.com  they are $19 each. to clean.  THEY ARE GREAT AND FAST !

http://www.witchhunter.com/

retired mech older than dirt.

  • GeorgeD
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Re: Need EXPERT opinion on 98 1.6 16V Engine issue.....
Reply #45
Thanks for the info, I will keep that info stored. I already purchased a rebuilt set of injectors from motorman.com for $34.95 ea.. Been too busy & haven't had time to put them in yet. Hopefully I will get to it soon.

Thanks Again for the info.
George
WANTED: Suzuki Samurais in any condition within a 100 mile radius of Hurricane, WV 25526 --- Maybe a little farther depending on what you have ;)

  • zuk1972
  • [*][*][*]
Re: Need EXPERT opinion on 98 1.6 16V Engine issue.....
Reply #46

My parts tracker has the original engine still in it to the best of my knowledge. I know that it does not have the crankshaft sensor in it either, thus I am guessing that it is an early mfg. Yes the distributors are different in the OBDI & II motors. Both the 96 & 98 have the OBDII distributors & OBDII plugs under the dash but neither have the crankshaft position sensor. The 98 has the wire for it but the 96 doesn't. I have a 95 2 door Tracker set up w/ same motor & trans except it is OBDI, that how I know there is a difference in the distributors by comparing them.

I am guessing that the sprocket pickup behind the lower timing belt pulley will not fit on a OBDI motor? When you say change out the harness & computer do you mean change out the complete wiring harness for the complete vehicle or is it is a 2 or 3 piece hardness that I could get away w/ changing just the part under the hood?

Thanks,
George

Tracker will run without a crank sensor ive ran mine before without .look for fuel,air,spark,compression  issues
The pan ,oil pump,and sproket will all convert from a 96-99 -with a 92-95 non obd2.
Sounds like someone replaced the engine with a pre 96 and swapped the dizzy but didnt finish the job with the pan,sproket and oil pump...
Yup im still doing harnesses on the cheap.P>M> me

Re: Need EXPERT opinion on 98 1.6 16V Engine issue.....
Reply #47
For the record - The CKP is a Hall Effect signal generator.  Jumping it is pointless (couldn't find the quote).  The ECM won't be able to interpret the signal.  The ECM uses CMP & CKP input to verify piston position for ignition & fuel injection.

95/96 is where the OBD change occurred. The CKP was added to the G16B with other OBDII "upgrades". OBDI and OBDII ECM's do not interchange.  They share many (but not all) of the same inputs and outputs but the pinouts are completely different (connectors are also different).  With one exception. I was able to make a 95 (OBDI) harness out of a 96 (OBDII) harness. The "B" & "C" connetors on the 96 are the same as the "A" & "B" connectors on the 95 (B=A & C=B).

All that's required to retrofit an OBDII motor to OBDI is the appropriate wire harness and ECM.  The reverse requires electrical and hardware upgrades.

I'll drop it here before I get any father off topic...  ;)

p.s. I happen to have an "extra" CKP & 96 oil pan

If you don't swear BY it, you'll certainly swear AT it!!!

  • jtgh
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Re: Need EXPERT opinion on 98 1.6 16V Engine issue.....
Reply #48
(all kicks review)
the CMP/CKP evolved form simple Variable reluctance device to a fully integrated Hall sensor with BUFFER
suk , when all the way to fully buffered (a transistor switch).  (HERE uSA in 91)
which makes it 100% digital,  it produces a perfect and clean square wave on newer kicks.
so the YEAR is the most important fact .
and some cars do have 2 , (DIS)  one on cam (for true tdc 1) an done on crank (perfect timing).

some cars (would like to test this) like the 1996 1.8L Sport.   versas   96 1.6L with crank sensors.  SOHC v DOHC
may run with the crank sensor dead.  try it on all dual ,Angle sensored engines. 
I know for a fact Lexus do.  ( shows the test in their FSM too)
diff years, diff EFI, diff markets, diff ECUs it is complex what one will do and will not do.

i remember the that quote too, about jumpering a cam sensor or crank sender.
he was confused and read that jumpering fools ECU's.  ( urban folk lore never ends)

the jumper fooled him,IMHO.
removing the crank sensor, forces many cars to run 100% off cam sender in limphome Mimic mode.
the cam has sloppy timing.
but some have many extra cam strobes so car can run off the cam.  (read high end cars have this) 1.8L ?

the crank sensor produces a very very accurate TDC and is used in many cars only as a deskew  of the cam error.
chains or belts do wiggle a lot. SLOP.

THE fsm shows all 4 types of wiring
schematically ( simplest patH)
diagrams, (real path)
harness paths (routing)
and connector pin out and types.

all anyone has to do is look at the fsm.


my answer ,depends.  (sorry if 1.8L is off topic.)






For the record - The CKP is a Hall Effect signal generator.  Jumping it is pointless (couldn't find the quote).  The ECM won't be able to interpret the signal.  The ECM uses CMP & CKP input to verify piston position for ignition & fuel injection.

95/96 is where the OBD change occurred. The CKP was added to the G16B with other OBDII "upgrades". OBDI and OBDII ECM's do not interchange.  They share many (but not all) of the same inputs and outputs but the pinouts are completely different (connectors are also different).  With one exception. I was able to make a 95 (OBDI) harness out of a 96 (OBDII) harness. The "B" & "C" connetors on the 96 are the same as the "A" & "B" connectors on the 95 (B=A & C=B).

All that's required to retrofit an OBDII motor to OBDI is the appropriate wire harness and ECM.  The reverse requires electrical and hardware upgrades.

I'll drop it here before I get any father off topic...  ;)

p.s. I happen to have an "extra" CKP & 96 oil pan


  • Last Edit: Friday, Mar 20, 2009, 03:33 PM by jtgh
retired mech older than dirt.

  • GeorgeD
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Re: Need EXPERT opinion on 98 1.6 16V Engine issue.....
Reply #49
Well after all I have done, including replacing...
Fuel tank & pump
Distributor electronic pick up (turns out nothing wrong w/ old one)
Distributir cap
fuel injectors (all of mine were stopped up)
& probably some more I can't remember since it has been an ongoing (when I have time) project.

I have fuel & spark but all it wants to do is try to start when the key is released when cranking. You can crank it al you want but the only time it hits is when you let off the key & it goes back into the run position. Then it will putter a little & then quit!?!?!!?!?! This thing is driving me nuts. Any ideas?

Thanks,
George
WANTED: Suzuki Samurais in any condition within a 100 mile radius of Hurricane, WV 25526 --- Maybe a little farther depending on what you have ;)

  • IanL
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Re: Need EXPERT opinion on 98 1.6 16V Engine issue.....
Reply #50
Maybe a weak spark - poor coil insulation, bad noise suppressor....

Re: Need EXPERT opinion on 98 1.6 16V Engine issue.....
Reply #51
this car is what i call a field found Tracker, siting around for a long time.
recap and comment.  

a 98 tracker , that sat in a field too long and had a bad engine swap and trany swap.
history: (neat)  vins checked ok.
p0335  no spark and of course no fuel  as ecu wont fuel if it thinks there is no spark.
crank sensor ckp missing, 95 block in 98 car, is distributor dizzy correct , yes, nums match.
cmp and ckp are now good. and correct for year 98.

new tank,pump, new filter, injectors. old were fully clogged with varnish.

Owner now has spark and fuel (MAjor mile stone)
Question1:
is cam cog top gear "E" pointing up to top notch on back cover and
is the crank at TDC mark on lower cog?
and the cam key way down?
yes?

is dizzy timed so that when #1 cylinder is at TDC firing ( all valves closed #1)
and ! the dizzy rotor is pointing exactly at one of the cap pins , and that wire goes to #1 cycl. front.
and going 1 ,,3,4,2, CCW ?  counter clock wise rotation.

so if you have spark
and you have fuel
and you have cam set correct
and you have dizzy set as above.
it will run.
no   ( compression test ever done, may be a rusted stuck open valve?) "field kicks do that"

then
pull the fuel pump relay and try test fuel?
get fuel injection out of loop, and just motor and spark
if that dont work , ?
my comment on 335 ? on many posts.
is p0335 gone, and not all year zuks and trackers run with this bad, not ALL YEARS !
generalizing about that not to good. its a software thing.

cam timing varies with just cam, gears and belts are sloppy. CMP
crank is dead on.ckp. so it kills spark ,
keep an on on the cel lamp. report any codes you see pop up.

see drawings of both 96 and 98.
they are the same.
note, noise suppressor runs tacho. only , on early kicks , the ecu monitored this and would throw codes for loss of tach sig.  95 and older.

attachments x4

those are my inputs. now some  questions

is 96 spare car a 1.8L sport,as that is totally diff car. DOHC motor , all diff.

the 96 spare car and 98 both have CPK , crank sensors. (96'->cut conn. harness? , engine swap again?)
I wonder what the VIN on the 96 would say, and the 96 block sn.    , easy test , just look.

i checked both GM and Suzuki schematics and yes, they do match on EFI parts.
as you know GM and suz use diff pin numbers but are same devices.  (just to fool us)
and I checked the EPC. the electronics parts list confirms all 96-98 have CKP and CMP. both.
and not one word in the comment fields about SN VIN exceptions or production mid year changes.

the electrical diffs on 96 to 98 are none, save the different ECU on each and every year!
so comparing software between them is hard.   eg: P0335 effects and rules.

cheers.
PS
that is my input,hope it helps i some small way.

the fact that the car sat for a long time is key.

a compression test is always a good thing.
and will show bad vavles,and slipped timing belt.  common on all 16v.

  • jtgh
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Re: Need EXPERT opinion on 98 1.6 16V Engine issue.....
Reply #52
news flash.
p0335 , ?

i examined the mitchel DB. 1998
it says the 3sp AT CKP is wired to the ECU pin 16 and 17  (26p ecu conn)
and the 4sp, is wired to the 8 and 9 ( 12pin ecu conn)

so the cars are wired (harness) diff between  3sp and 4sp.
this can explain a lot.

you need a real FSM to work this out.
the 96 FSM makes no mention of that.


diff ecus is the reason.
retired mech older than dirt.

  • GeorgeD
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Re: Need EXPERT opinion on 98 1.6 16V Engine issue.....
Reply #53
WHOOOOHOOO FINALLY GOT IT RUNNING & it runs like a champ. Hasn't been running in over a year & when it started it purred like a kitten w/o any noises or smoke...I couldn't believe it.

Now I have another problem.....just my luck :\\\'( Seems the trans is acting up. Put it in Drive & it takes off fine. Shift from first to 2nd fine & then when it shifts from 2nd to drive it goes into neutral. My transmission buddy that originally fixed the transmission said it might be a solenoid but he will have to pull the pan to check it. He told me today that he had only rebuilt a couple of these as all he works on is American transmissions. I thought he told me that they were basically the same transmissions that Chevy used in the old Chevettes but he told me today that was the 3 spd autos not the 4spd OD trans. He said they were basically the same as the Isuzu Troopers if he remembered right. Anyway I'm not sure he's going to be able to fix it & I am getting deeper & deeper into this thing. I guess the good side is that this thing has a perfect interior & body (no rust at all!)

Anybody out thee ever work much on the 4 spd auto transmissions that could give me any hints on what I need to do?

As always thanks in advance for any help & THANKS to everyone who have been so helpful all of this time.

Worst case scenario, anybody out there have a ready to install 4 spd. auto that will drop in a 98 Tracker?

George D in WV
WANTED: Suzuki Samurais in any condition within a 100 mile radius of Hurricane, WV 25526 --- Maybe a little farther depending on what you have ;)

  • IanL
  • [*][*][*]
Re: Need EXPERT opinion on 98 1.6 16V Engine issue.....
Reply #54

WHOOOOHOOO FINALLY GOT IT RUNNING & it runs like a champ. Hasn't been running in over a year & when it started it purred like a kitten w/o any noises or smoke...I couldn't believe it.


So, after all that, what was the problem ?

Re: Need EXPERT opinion on 98 1.6 16V Engine issue.....
Reply #55
I,m kind of thinking he was one tooth out on the distributor,Hope George lets us know.
In the works, moderate trail machine

  • GeorgeD
  • [*][*][*]
Re: Need EXPERT opinion on 98 1.6 16V Engine issue.....
Reply #56
I'm almost too embarrassed to say what the problem was. First it did need the following ....
Gas tank
Fuel filter
fuel pump
injectors
fuel system flushed
distributor cap

but the biggest reason after all of that it wouldn't run...DON'T LAUGH TOO MUCH...someone had moved all of the spark plug wires around 1 position!! I can't believe that wasn't the first thing I checked!!! I guess sometimes the simplest things are the most over looked.

One thing I can say that I have learned a lot about Trackers from you guys & I really appreciate all of your time & help. I hope one day I can return the favor. The biggest thing I have learned is I like my Samurai's a lot more. They may not be as confortable as the Trackers & Sidekicks but they are a LOT easier for me to work on  ;D

Thanks Again,
George D in WV
WANTED: Suzuki Samurais in any condition within a 100 mile radius of Hurricane, WV 25526 --- Maybe a little farther depending on what you have ;)


  • jtgh
  • [*][*][*][*]
Re: Need EXPERT opinion on 98 1.6 16V Engine issue.....
Reply #58
we call those super dogs. cars no one else can fix.  (or Field Kicks , found in some Field somewhere)

so, does it run with no CPK sensor and run perfect with P0355 continuously? 
does not having a CPK , kill all P0300 monitors, dead?   I wonder? 

just asking cuz many folks have to arrive at a smog statioin with no CEL and no (or only 1) pending monitors. to pass smog.

i wonder.

thanks for sharing and thanks for update . cheers.


I'm almost too embarrassed to say what the problem was. First it did need the following ....
Gas tank
Fuel filter
fuel pump
injectors
fuel system flushed
distributor cap

but the biggest reason after all of that it wouldn't run...DON'T LAUGH TOO MUCH...someone had moved all of the spark plug wires around 1 position!! I can't believe that wasn't the first thing I checked!!! I guess sometimes the simplest things are the most over looked.

One thing I can say that I have learned a lot about Trackers from you guys & I really appreciate all of your time & help. I hope one day I can return the favor. The biggest thing I have learned is I like my Samurai's a lot more. They may not be as confortable as the Trackers & Sidekicks but they are a LOT easier for me to work on  ;D

Thanks Again,
George D in WV
retired mech older than dirt.

  • GeorgeD
  • [*][*][*]
Re: Need EXPERT opinion on 98 1.6 16V Engine issue.....
Reply #59

we call those super dogs. cars no one else can fix.  (or Field Kicks , found in some Field somewhere)

so, does it run with no CPK sensor and run perfect with P0355 continuously? 
does not having a CPK , kill all P0300 monitors, dead?   I wonder? 

just asking cuz many folks have to arrive at a smog statioin with no CEL and no (or only 1) pending monitors. to pass smog.

i wonder.

thanks for sharing and thanks for update . cheers.



Actually I haven't drove it much since we got it running. Having a problem w/ transmission. It's actually getting checked out this weekend. If it turns out to cost too much to fix I have already located another. I've probably only out about 15-20 miles on it. It runs like a watch ever since we got it running & I have have scanned it & only got a couple trans codes. Once I get it on the road & drive it a while I can let you know more. When I first got it I was gung ho to get it on the road, since then I have got a few other projects & it has fell by the way side.

GeorgeD
WANTED: Suzuki Samurais in any condition within a 100 mile radius of Hurricane, WV 25526 --- Maybe a little farther depending on what you have ;)