Hydrogen Fuel Cell

[ZUKIMON]

No offense taken Ack. I know how all this works, but this was on a local channel, FOX18 in Charlotte, NC and they were doing a special on a guy that had claimed his Civic was getting something like 70+ mpg. I didn't see it for myself, but the service manager at work did and told us about it. My service manager is wanting to try this out really bad, so he tries to read everything and watch everything there is about it. I don't know if it's true or not, but it sure does give one hope.

[ack]

Oh the Irony....

I work for a Fox TV station too!

I emailed Fox 18 in Charlotte to see if they aired the story and, if so, asked if they can send my TV station a copy for review.  We have a few businesses in Kansas City including Midwest Research Institiute who might be able to shed some light on this news report and give a definitive answer as to the BS content (or lack thereof) of it.

[ZUKIMON]

That's cool man. It would be really neat if you could verify the validity of this.

[Jeremiah]

That's cool man. It would be really neat if you could verify the validity of this.

People have been trying for over a decade (or two?), it's a story that keeps coming up, and going away... for a reason.

[ack]

People have been trying for over a decade (or two?), it's a story that keeps coming up, and going away... for a reason.

I know, but maybe I can strike a blow for reality by hunting down this particular story and dissecting it until the raw truth is revealed.

I think that you and I share the same point of view on the topic....  but then again, if the harsh light of reality shows the whole idea as a scam, those who believe in the Worldwide Conspiracy of Evil will pooh-pooh the report as OPEC propaganda.

I guess there is no way to kill this once and for all.

Nevermind.

End of thread for me.

[beekiller]

This isn't hydrogen related, but intriguing all the same:

http://www.energy.iastate.edu/Renewable/ammonia/ammonia/2007/Wang1_NH3.pdf




Could this be a good "green" fuel? 

[ZUKIMON]

  Care to explain the last tweelve pages to me?

[beekiller]

  Care to explain the last tweelve pages to me?

Sure.     In a nutshell, ammonia is a viable fuel for IC engines, clean burning (emissions are nitrogen gas, which constitutes around 70% of the atmosphere, and water), cost effective, and could potentially be produced from natural sources whereas it is presently produced using natural gas.  Engines burning ammonia also run cooler as the injection process actually produces a cooling effect.   

[ZUKIMON]

That's sort of what I gathered from it, but wanted to be completely sure.

What has to be done to an engine to run ammonia? Is it cost effective?

[beekiller]

What has to be done to an engine to run ammonia? Is it cost effective?

Cost effective, according to them yes.  Nothing to the engine.  It needs to be run with a fuel primer, that is, gasoline or some other combustible which helps the mixture to reach the temp required for the ammonia to ignite during each cycle.  And I imagine some "jetting" changes as well. 

[ZUKIMON]

What about on an EFI vehicle? There's no jetting to be done on those, but you do have fuel mapping that will change/need to be changed.

[tippy]

i am in the process of making a fuel cell as we speak and i whole heartedly belive that is goin to work. i have everything i need from the anode and cathode plats to the pulse width modualator and i should be on my sammi within 2 weeks and then we will see what happens see if it really works or not but i just hope that it does.

cody

[rockrat]

For those realy interested go to Utube and search ZERO FOSSIL FUEL>> I have watched every video he has done, I have also researched Stanley meyer RIP and Browns fuel, It can work if made properly..

[Jeremiah]

For those realy interested go to Utube and search ZERO FOSSIL FUEL>> I have watched every video he has done, I have also researched Stanley meyer RIP and Browns fuel, It can work if made properly..

Stanley Meyer was a con artist. He was sued by his investors for gross and egregious fraud, and they won after experts examined his vehicle and found that there wasn't anything "special" about what he was doing. Brown's Gas (HHO) does exist - but it takes more energy to created it than the HHO releases. This is basic physics folks...

If it looks like snake oil, and smells like snake oil....

Honestly - if we could just attach a $50 widgit to our trucks, and get 30%+ more MPG... why isn't everyone doing it? This isn't the first time the brown's gas thing has come up... it won't be the last. But, hey... don't take my word for it...

[Jeremiah]

yes it does take energy to make as stated above but so does gas

Gas is distilled from crude oil. I can ignite crude oil. I can't ignite water. Crude oil already has tremendous energy potential, and still takes energy to make it. It's taking something with energy potential, and transforming it to something that can be burned in our vehicle (gasoline, diesel, propane etc). The "cracking" done to make H2O into HHO takes a lot of energy - more than it's going to give by 'igniting', and going back to water.

my problem is that there are people on this site and others that think it is impossible to get something to run on water, i think they just talk and don't do any research on the subject

I think it's VERY possible to run a combustion engine on HHO. I DON'T think a HHO generator on-board is going to create MPG gains.

The "but, it's an additive" argument a-la I'm-trying-to-sell-you-a-product web sides like this:
"Critics of HHO technology that invoke the first law of thermodynamics usually do so saying, that there is no such thing as a perpetual motion machine. What the critics fail to recognize however, is that HHO is a fuel additive, so no one is talking about a perpetual motion machine."

You're STILL describing perpetual motion because the HHO generator is on-board & using energy from the engine to make energy for the engine. Making it closed system, and therefore in violation of the laws of thermo dynamics.

More info on the HHO scam:
http://www.aardvark.co.nz/hho.shtml
http://www.slicknslack.com/2008/07/hho-scam-part-iv-its-the-thermodynamics-stupid/
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_clinic/4260857.html

If I hear the "but if we don't try, we'll never know" thing one more time, I'm going to throw up in my mouth a little. This is NOT a new concept, and has been debunked over and over again since the 70's.

i guess they have never seen city buses running on hydrogen.

Two different things:
1) Making HHO off the energy from the engine, then burning it in that same engine.
2) Production hydrogen powered vehicles use fuel ALREADY made elsewhere (taking energy to make at a plant), then added to the vehicle.

If anyone insists on doing this anyway - BE CAREFUL, make blow-off valves that vent to SAFE places. HHO is highly explosive and dangerous... and gets VERY unstable if it's pressurized. Vent off all HHO when vehicle is turned off with a relay and / or scavenge pump. This is some no-joke crazy explosive stuff. Look it up on the internet if you want to have fun with it and blow things up.

As stated before: I'd like this to work but I doubt it will. I just don't see it working as described. There's people trying to separate you from your money everywhere, an they *gasp* lie. They're dang good at it too. After all, who wouldn't want to save $$$ on gas by just adding a cheap HHO engine & water? It's attractive... that's what makes the scam so good... In other words, I'll believe it when a good study by a non-biased source comes out and says it works. Until then, all I see are people saying, "Hey, it works, and I'll sell you the tech to do it too!"