Hydrogen Fuel Cell

[Jeremiah]

Very few details were released. I think he's shopping for investors, and doubtless he's not wanting to release any more info than he has to until his product is rolling out to customers. And, like most new tech, I doubt it will be cheap to buy it from them. A bank of solar panels alone is spendy, let alone storage tanks, compressors, safety valves, and whatever needs to be done to convert the home.

[fireman_033]

   I know this is an old dead thread just read through it and was thinkin bout the dead folks that have tried this John kaffenberger use to own a local video store and sound shop he sold everything to invest in some sort of "car that runs on  water you'll see" he personally said to me and about a year later they found him dead in mexico....   odd to say the least.   Scott

[Indy]

We had a guy that ran all over town for 6 months yelling that the tree people were after him, he died at my feet.  Odd, but that doesn't mean the tree people were after him.

[fireman_033]

   I dont think he was killed just odd is all.....after all he was in mexico and theres no tellin what extra carricular activities were goin on. You could say the man killed him but I dont think so. Scott

[mentalbreakdown00]

OK i'm still confused about all this HHO stuff. I've read it doesnt make sense cause it takes more power to produce than it makes. WTH does that mean? I've made an HHO generator, it pulled around 30 amps, I never got around to putting it onto a vehicle. So what if it takes 30 amps from an altenator that's already having to turn and charge the battery anyway. Making an altenator produce a slight amount more amperage is better than buying more gasoline....I do not understand what is the deal with that statement like th argument that an engineer will give you that a electric fan cannot give you better mileage bacause it makes the altenator work harder creating more drag...uhh still has 1/4 less drag cause there is not a 15 lb fan haning on the end of a water pump to turn anymore. Any explinations on this please.

[fireman_033]

  Ok I am not sayin the theory is correct just gonna try to explain a little.  I the alternator is havin to put out an extra 30 amps to run the hho generator the it is luggin the hell out of the engine. Just connect it to your battery and turn it on and listen to the engine lug. Kinda like hookin jumper cables up to a dead vehicle. Now that bein said will the gas make up for that load when it hits the engine?  I understand the theory on both ends just dont know how well either stand up.  Scott

[Indy]

There's soooo many different things that play into this and even with a physics background it's hard to put them all together over the keyboard so they make any kind of sense to someone else.  If it was face to face it would be a lot easier.  Facts of the matter is HHO by itself is a net loss.  There is no way possible that it can produce enough energy to sustain itself, much less increase power through the engine.  You can't increase mileage without increasing available energy from the same amount of fuel.  The fallback argument is always that it somehow makes the existing fuel burn better/different etc. but I'm not aware of any information that shows it to be so.   

You have to ignore subjective information like "It felt like".  I know that strapping a 400lb spoiler on a honda slows it down, but every kid that does it will tell you how much faster it suddenly is.  Same thing.  One of the cool things about science is that it's repeatable.  If a system works you have to be able to hand it to your buddy Bob and get the same results as what you did.

So practical example as above:

I don't know how many amps my sammi pulls just running.  It's non FI so theirs not a lot of electrical going on at any given time except for heat and/lights.  So I'm running a CSI alt, good low down power.  I idle at about 900 rpm with no load, turn on heater and lights and the additional pull from the alt drops my idle to about 700, and the volt meter shows a slight drop in output from the lower rpm.  So to get my rpms back up to keep the system at full charge I have add 200 rpms worth off fuel.  It's not a lot at any given time, but it's a constant drain.  Now assuming I'm pulling 30 amps at idle, as soon as the HHO generator powers up, I've just doubled that load and doubled that constant drain.

So now the argument is "But if the HHO produces more power than it robs, it's a net gain!"  Doesn't work.  You've got the entire line of laws of thermodynamics coming into play and have to consider what happens when you convert energy from one form to another.  And that is for every energy conversion, you lose energy.  When you introduce 30 amps of energy into the water part of that energy is being converted into heat.  So for 30 amps worth of work into the system you're getting 30 amps - x(heat) of energy out of the system  available to be used.  Then when the HHO is in the engine it gets converted again, so you've got 30 amps -2x of energy in the system.  But the engine has to turn the alternator to to run the HHO system so some of the energy made is being used to overcome the additional alternator load AND additional friction being created by it, so you've got 30 amps -3x energy from the system.

It's like using a battery to power a motor to turn an alt to charge the battery.  In a 100% efficient system, and electric motors are pretty efficient, the machine will run perpetually and you will be rich beyond your wildest dreams.  But it can't because the system will always use more energy to run itself than it can produce.

So the next argument is always "I'll make the generator at home and store it on the car to drive!"  Yep, you've bypassed the on board creation problem.  But 1.  You get to travel around with a nice homemade hydrogen bomb on your car and 2.  it doesn't matter.  It takes the same amount of energy to convert the water no matter where it's plugged in.  So your electric bill goes up instead of your gas bill, especially considering that these generators produce next to nothing for gas.  I've seen the 2 liter soda vids and it may be impressive until you figure out that your engine will empty that 2 liter bottle of gas in about 1/50th the time it took to create.  So that's a whole lot of time of non stop 30 amp draw on your homes electrical system.

So what would an actually working system do?  It has to produce the same amount of work using a lesser fuel load.  The only way for that to happen is to increase the amount of energy being used for the same amount of fuel supplied. 

So it would have to work on a fixed fuel supply engine, like a carb.  The carb makes no adjustments like a FI engine that changes mix constantly.  So at idle turn on the HHO and your idle speed would have to increase from the added fuel.  On a Dyno you would see a HP gain over the entire range since the old fuel supply is still being added + the additional energy from the HHO.  Think Nitrous.  But nowhere have I read evidence that such a thing happens.

Every positive experience has been on a FI engine and they always start out with failure.  "I added HHO and saw a loss in mileage."  Totally expected for all the reasons above.  You can't hitch on a trailer and expect your mileage to go up.  Answer: "That's because your computer has to be adjusted by a new O2 sensor, and this extender etc etc etc. to do whatever".    Then "Hey I added the stuff and it works!"  And my fav. so far "I even had my system break  somewhere in the middle of a 1000 mile trip and I still got the better mileage!?!?!?"  That's great except all the bits and pieces you just did does nothing other than force the engine to run lean all the time.  A leaner mix is a hotter mix and hotter does produce more power.  It also damages the engine over time and produces a whole lot more pollutants.  And the key to the last one is the fact that system on or not, you got the same results. 

So long story short, waaaay too late, but anyway 1. the HHO is a net loss to the system.  Always will be, no other way.  2. The systems used can't even provide enough gas to actually be usable to the system it's running on.  3.  It doesn't work on carb'd engines since you can't fool a hunk of aluminum.  Just jet it down really lean and buy some backup pistons.

And 4.  There's several people offering Million dollar + rewards to anyone who can provide a working system.  Out of all the people claiming success (and offering to sell you plans for $50) no-one has claimed the prizes.  If I had a system that's saving me $10 a fill-up, you can be darn sure I'd be typing this from a beach chair surrounded by hot women instead of from my office and watching the snow fall out my window.

[Indy]

And don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to be wrong about things like this.  If somewhere this somehow this turns into a workable system, I will have no trouble admitting I was wrong.  But I hate that people prey on others, even for $50 a whack.  Even old Stanley that HHO advocates seem to worship did nothing but take enough high school science to make it believable to a layperson and then collect checks.  Been the same story with the same twists since the 70's when he first popped out his little magic VW.

[ack]

OK i'm still confused about all this HHO stuff. I've read it doesnt make sense cause it takes more power to produce than it makes. WTH does that mean? I've made an HHO generator, it pulled around 30 amps, I never got around to putting it onto a vehicle. So what if it takes 30 amps from an altenator that's already having to turn and charge the battery anyway. Making an altenator produce a slight amount more amperage is better than buying more gasoline....I do not understand what is the deal with that statement like th argument that an engineer will give you that a electric fan cannot give you better mileage bacause it makes the altenator work harder creating more drag...uhh still has 1/4 less drag cause there is not a 15 lb fan haning on the end of a water pump to turn anymore. Any explinations on this please.

Indy's post - the points about Conservation of Energy - describes the problems of HHO consuming more energy than it creates.  Good description, Indy!

About electric radiator fans...  They actually do save money because they ONLY load down the engine - through the alternator - when they are electrically activated by a coolant temperature sensor switch.  The temperature sensor switch does "consume" tiny amounts heat to activate the electric fan but the amount consumed is incredibly small compared to the energy that would be lost running the electric fan continuously.  Compare the temperature sensor switch to the common lever and fulcrum:  You can use a small amount of energy to lift a large mass with a properly-set-up lever and fulcrum. you can also use a small amount of energy to control a much larger quantity of energy with a sensor switch. 

A normal mechanical fan always presents a load to the engine  - through the drive belt - no matter how hot (or cold) the engine is thus producing wasted load on the engine.  This is especially true in the winter time.

Physics is a complicated topic - but it is UNDERSTANDABLE.  It has logic. It has structure.  There is no "black magic" involved except in the minds of those who choose not to make the effort to understand Physics - even in it's basic form.   Those here who know something about physics paid attention in High School.  Those that know more about physics than us "High Schoolers", made a financial commitment in various forms of higher education.

The "black magic" crowd WILL learn something by buying into the something-for-nothing HHO fuel cell scam.  Unfortunately, they will be too embarrassed to pass on their discoveries to the rest of us becauee that is how a scam works!

Finally, English grammar rules are a handy thing to know.  It makes one's writing easier to read by others.

Once again, I have wasted an hour of my life on this totally pointless and unproductive thread... and made enemies in the process!

[ZukiEd]

I got to take a look at a hydrogen fuel cell obviously different that A hydrogen powered ICE engine. It was while i was in college down in ohio in my alternative fuel class. It was a ford focus (a million dollar) Ford focus. all carbon fiber, prototype low rolling resistance tires. The ford Rep Told us Told us it was a zero emission vehicle But as he was talking and had thing thing "running" Are Noxious gas alarms started going off he instantly said it wasnt the car, he turned it off, alarm goes off, he starts it back up alarms blare. The fuel cell wont be doable for year and years until they can get the price of the cell down. I cant remember the price of the cell but it needed to be changed 25k miles at a 50k price. due to the membrane that seperates the hydrogen. The really only problem that stops hydrogen from being feesable In a ICE engine  is that no matter what container they put it in it evaporates. Propane and cng are ready oil companines are just to corrupt and have to much power.

[ddement]

   I know this is an old dead thread just read through it and was thinkin bout the dead folks that have tried this John kaffenberger use to own a local video store and sound shop he sold everything to invest in some sort of "car that runs on  water you'll see" he personally said to me and about a year later they found him dead in mexico....   odd to say the least.   Scott

I worked for john for a long time, the drugs are what did him and the business in.

[Bigrob26]

just recently i tested to see how much amperage was being drawn at startup... this was on a jeep with a modified high comp. engine so it required more to turn over...
the most amps being drawn was it spiked at 12-13 and almost instantly went down and sat around 2-3 amps
with all accesories turned on (lights, fan, radio, flashers, wipers, ect.) there was about 20 amps being drawn (i dont exactly remember the number)
a 30 amp hho genearator drawing 30 amps would mean the total amps ever being drawn would be 50-60 at MOST!!!!!  and the alternator is capable of producing 90 amps.....
we are puttng an hho kit in his jeep
it should improve mileage because it burns faster than gasoline, and cooler due to the fact that it burns faster, also increase power because it is burning all the fuel much more efficiently.. if set up correctly with an EFIE it is possible to fool the computer that everything is NORMAL. the company producing these kits says (for this specific model) 20% increase in power, and up to 50% increase in fuel economy
some have even gotten more
here you can check it out.. http://www.hhokitsdirect.com/
if you really want to know how it works PM me in a few weeks. we are installing friday after thanksgiving
 

[ZUKIMON]

You post back in two tanks and let us know.

[Willc]

Silly Kids woodgas is the HHO

[ack]

Silly Kids woodgas is the HHO

Good idea Willc!

I read about woodgas when I was a kid reading "the Boy Mechanic" published sometime before 1920.

No, I ain't THAT old...  I had grandparents who were avid readers.

I also recall that a lot of folks out in the country used woodgas during WWII when they ran out of ration tickets.  Heck, I seem to recall that Mother Earth News had a few articles on the topic!

At least it isn't bogus technology...

Do a search for wood gas at youtube.com

It takes a bit of setting up. but I bet you could have a lot of success cheaply running your truck with wood gas over HHO.