Hydrogen Fuel Cell

[ArtByScars]

So I'm on this mission of learning about creating a hydrogen fuel cell- one glass jar can power you 400+ miles simply on "water".

I've been scouring the internet, but have yet to find any how-to's...  salt water, hydrogen peroxide, and some power from your battery... this is one of those things the government really wants to keep people out of, especially since they killed the man who invented it.

anyone interested in this?
look it up

[ddement]

I have looked into it some but quickly realized it is pretty much a dead end unless you are bill gates.

 To get the hydrogen from water you have to have an anode which is usually made from aluminum and it doesn't last long. You would probably go through several pounds a week and it needs to be pretty good quality which is not cheap in billet form.

BMW has done more research on this than any other carmaker and they had a lot of trouble getting the car to run on pure hydrogen gas for a couple of reasons.
 1. The hydrogen turns to water when burnt and the resulting moisture seized up rings valves etc. unless driven every couple of hours unless stainless or titanium valves, rings, valve springs etc. are used.

2 They had to design special rings because the gas would seep past them and build up in the crankcase and after 3 to 5 minutes= BOOM! toasted and ventilated block. They still haven't worked out all the bugs and they have spent millions on it.

Right now there is no economically feasible way to make hydrogen. You either have to use lots of electricity, anode material etc. to get it from water or you have to burn large amounts of natural gas to get the gas along with needing specialized expensive compressors to compress it.

[ArtByScars]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf4gOS8aoFk

that's worth a watch

I'm just really into the idea- since it's not an impossibility. There's lots of videos of home made hydrogen fuel cells- engines, lawn mowers, torches, etc running on "water".. "HHO"

I'm no scientist, but with enough people putting their heads together- this is not out of reach, but is likely to get squashed online.

it's interesting

[ddement]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf4gOS8aoFk

that's worth a watch

I'm just really into the idea- since it's not an impossibility. There's lots of videos of home made hydrogen fuel cells- engines, lawn mowers, torches, etc running on "water".. "HHO"

I'm no scientist, but with enough people putting their heads together- this is not out of reach, but is likely to get squashed online.

it's interesting

 It is interesting but he still needs the radio wave generator to release the hydrogen and from the size of it I would say it isn't cheap and probably uses a good bit of electricity which would negate the cheap energy part.

[dabomb5756]

this is one of those things the government really wants to keep people out of, especially since they killed the man who invented it.

The government killed the man who invented renewable energy using h2o as a source?

[grm]

The government killed the man who invented renewable energy using h2o as a source?

prove it, if not retract your comment.

[HUMZUKI]

Yea I read somewhere that it needs WAY more power than it could produce so its worthless in a vehicle.

I also read somewhere that the deal with the Hydrogen,,,,,you use it as an additive. You create hydrogen when you do this

http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,77341.0.html


So if you start up the process could turn on with ignition and you could contained it and feed it into your engine and cut back on the gas.....I GUESS. I dont like the idea of having such a flammable gas under the hood. EXPLODING sucks

[grm]

Yea I read somewhere that it needs WAY more power than it could produce so its worthless in a vehicle.

I also read somewhere that the deal with the Hydrogen,,,,,you use it as an additive. You create hydrogen when you do this

http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,77341.0.html


So if you start up the process could turn on with ignition and you could contained it and feed it into your engine and cut back on the gas.....I GUESS. I dont like the idea of having such a flammable gas under the hood. EXPLODING sucks

you only use 15% of power from gas thats 85% loss

its only explosive if compressed, less dangerous than gas

[grm]

here check this out, you will see its not as expensive as you think. and it works

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofsxZfu9rW0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT9yYM-IiIo&feature=related

[HUMZUKI]

here check this out, you will see its not as expensive as you think. and it works

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofsxZfu9rW0

No I meant the salt water fuel with that radio wave emitter thing the guy made. Thats not hydrogen. Like I said when I used electrolysis  to remove rust from me header thats exactly what I was making as a by product...hydrogen. AS soon as you turn on the juice you can see it bubbling up

[bazza413]

Check this site out, a lot of useful information http://www.micro-vett.it/H2/ing/Hydrogen.html as the cost of fuel is so high over here gas about $10 / gallon and derv about a buck higher some companies are really looking into this being a viable option. We have their electric vehicles in the UK for city use and I think once they have sorted all the issues this system will take of if the big auto companies let it.

[ZUKIMON]

prove it, if not retract your comment.

His was not a statement, rather a question to the statement made by the poster. Go back and re-read the first post and then you will need to retract your comment.


Just thought that I would bring this back to the top as I and a friend, are planning on trying this out. We are thinking of starting it as soon as this weekend.

[Jeremiah]

Snake oil.

I've studied HHO / brown's gas, and if you do a little digging, you'll find out this is defeated by the laws of thermo-dynamics.
http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-technical-discussion/47181-electrolysis-hho-intake-charge.html

Guys like this are quick to point out it's a "conspiracy theory" from OPEC:
http://www.tranism.com/weblog/2006/06/hho_power_hybri.html

But reality is it just doesn't work. It's been proven time and time again.

Many people have tried before us, and they've all failed. I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but a couple guys got arrested / chased out of town for trying to get investors in this - knowing FULL well it was snake oil BS. They'd show a prototype that "worked"... but they'd forget to mention they were drawing more power from the battery than the charging system could keep up with. They'd do short runs, or use large battery banks in their prototypes to go long-range. But, in the end, it still takes energy to create energy, so those batteries got depleted, and the cars would stop.

Trust me - I wanted it to be true... but it just isn't. You can't make "free" energy from nothing. What we do with gas engines is "release" the energy stored in gas. HHO / Brown's gas needs to be created, then released - the creation process (if 100% efficient) takes as much energy as is given back by exploding the gas. Problem is, the conversion / explosion process isn't even 100% efficient... so you're actually LOOSING MPG or killing the battery over the long haul.

That said - the HHO process is a GREAT way to take rust off of parts... but do it out in the open as to not catch things on fire 

[Jeremiah]

Okay, I got a little un-lazy. Stanley Meyer is probably the most well-known HHO guy 'cause of this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIgOn1kRw5s&feature=related

Really, do a little research into chemistry, and it will back everything stated here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Meyer%27s_water_fuel_cell

[grm]

His was not a statement, rather a question to the statement made by the poster. Go back and re-read the first post and then you will need to retract your comment.


Just thought that I would bring this back to the top as I and a friend, are planning on trying this out. We are thinking of starting it as soon as this weekend.

you know you are right, i am sorry. i guess i should have read it closer, its been a while since the post but at the time i was trying to make hydrogen and was able to get it to work ( which i did ) it is intended to be a supplement not a total replacement. yes it does take energy to make as stated above but so does gas, it is a good and fairly safe way to help to improve your gas mileage. my problem is that there are people on this site and others that think it is impossible to get something to run on water, i think they just talk and don't do any research on the subject, i guess they have never seen city buses running on hydrogen. again thanks for bringing up my mistake. grm 

[Jeremiah]

...it does take energy to make as stated above but so does gas...

Yes... but no.

Gas already has energy stored in it, so it just needs a little energy to release the energy in gasoline. Because gas already has lots energy stored in it, it's able to more-than-replace the energy needed to spark it.

[Skyman]

Disclaimer.. it's explosive, hot and dangerous...it could burn you blind you or explode you, not my fault if you hurt yourself.

Ok, take a glass jug. I use a glass coke bottle, or a jones soda bottle. Now get some Lye (I use pure soap making lye), some tin foil, and some big balloons. Put a very tightly rolled up length of tin foil as round and as long that will fit in the mouth of the bottle, pour lye into the bottle, cover the tin foil about half way.

Now slowly pour some water into the bottle dissolving the lye and letting it react with the tin foil. One it starts to react and get hot cover the coke bottle with the balloon(careful not to get burnt (it's hot) or spill any on your skin - I use rubber gloves). The balloon will expand, and fill by itself.

Once it's full enough, take it off and tie it in a not. You now how a balloon filled with hydrogen, it's highly flammable and it will float high.

Use your imagination. Exploding UFO's have come to mind before.

SO tin foil, lye, and water make hydrogen with no battery needed.

[ack]

My 2 cents:

An aquaintence recently tried to convince me that he could build a vehicle that could run on water by simply setting up an electrolysis-based hydrogen generator that would be driven by a battery which was, in turn charged by the engine that burned the resulting hydrogen as fuel.

The problem with this design is the fact that more energy is required to keep the system running than is generated by the system itself no matter how much water you inserted into the system.

It all boils down to this -

Millions of years worth of action on plantlife through the laying down of sediments - driven by the heat engine that is Planet Earth - have given us today's petroleum resources.  Petroleum is "free" in the sense that we, as a consuming lifeform, did not have to lift a finger to create it. Mother Nature has done all the heavy lifting over literally eons of time.  All we have to do is extract Mother Nature's handiwork from the ground and run it through a distilling process.

Creating hydrogen to burn in an internal combustion engine as a replacement for gasoline, requires far more energy than the same amount of gasoline - despite the fact that the basic material used to create the hydrogen (water) is abundant - UNLESS it is produced on a massive scale using an wildly-inexpensive power source.  Even then, the hydrogen equivalent to a gallon of gas may still cost more to use due to the costs involved  in containing hydrogen, transporting hydrogen and designing vehcles to use it.

The point I am trying to make here is that I don't see the average Joe building his own cost-effective hydrogen generator for his own hydrogen-converted G10-powered Metro as long as there is a cheaper alternative (even at $150 a barrel!), namely Petroleum.  Texas Tea.  Black Gold.  Now everybody said "Jed, move away from there! Californy is the place you oughta be!  So they packed their bags an moved to Beverly.  Hills that is.  Movie Stars.  Swimmin' Pools...."   

Yours in Non-sequitorism,

President of the Independence, MO Zippy the Pinhead Fan Club,

[viking]

My 2 cents:

An aquaintence recently tried to convince me that he could build a vehicle that could run on water by simply setting up an electrolysis-based hydrogen generator that would be driven by a battery which was, in turn charged by the engine that burned the resulting hydrogen as fuel.

The problem with this design is the fact that more energy is required to keep the system running than is generated by the system itself no matter how much water you inserted into the system.

It all boils down to this -

Millions of years worth of action on plantlife through the laying down of sediments - driven by the heat engine that is Planet Earth - have given us today's petroleum resources.  Petroleum is "free" in the sense that we, as a consuming lifeform, did not have to lift a finger to create it. Mother Nature has done all the heavy lifting over literally eons of time.  All we have to do is extract Mother Nature's handiwork from the ground and run it through a distilling process.

Creating hydrogen to burn in an internal combustion engine as a replacement for gasoline, requires far more energy than the same amount of gasoline - despite the fact that the basic material used to create the hydrogen (water) is abundant - UNLESS it is produced on a massive scale using an wildly-inexpensive power source.  Even then, the hydrogen equivalent to a gallon of gas may still cost more to use due to the costs involved  in containing hydrogen, transporting hydrogen and designing vehcles to use it.

The point I am trying to make here is that I don't see the average Joe building his own cost-effective hydrogen generator for his own hydrogen-converted G10-powered Metro as long as there is a cheaper alternative (even at $150 a barrel!), namely Petroleum.  Texas Tea.  Black Gold.  Now everybody said "Jed, move away from there! Californy is the place you oughta be!  So they packed their bags an moved to Beverly.  Hills that is.  Movie Stars.  Swimmin' Pools...."  

Yours in Non-sequitorism,

President of the Independence, MO Zippy the Pinhead Fan Club,

This is exactly what I've been trying to tell people for a long time, splitting H2O into H2 and O gases is energy intensive, even with solar because of the cost of the system would have to be figured into when it would produce more energy than what it cost for the panels, controls and storage systems.

[ZUKIMON]

  So they packed their bags an moved to Beverly.  Hills that is.  Movie Stars.  Swimmin' Pools...."  

"So they loaded up the truck, and moved to Beverly. Hills that is. Swimming pools, Movie stars....." 

Sorry, I love that tune and I felt I had to tell you the proper way.

[ack]

"So they loaded up the truck, and moved to Beverly. Hills that is. Swimming pools, Movie stars....." 

Sorry, I love that tune and I felt I had to tell you the proper way.

OOPS again!

[freewheelin]

Well for what its worth A friend of mine made one of these....it actually produced hydrogen(not much, but it did work)
He put it on a dodge dakota that was getting 13mpg.he also changed his driving style(became much more conservative) Drove it about 80miles and got 17mpg. As a test he removed the unit for the drive home.....he got 20mpg with it off.. 

So i'd say save your money and just drive with a ligther right foot.   just my .02

[ZUKIMON]

Hmm, this is puzzling to say the least. There was a guy on the local news the other day that put this on a Civic and is getting something like 70 mpg.

[viking]

At least putting one of these things together isn't going to break your pocket book and it might just work, especially on vehicles that don't have all the computer control over all aspects of the engine.  The thing is this system makes hydrogen and oxygen in a gas form so for computer controlled engines this may be a major hiccup, by just having a little extra oxygen going through the engine the oxygen sensor may be throwing signals to the fuel control computer to enrich the fuel to air mix.

[ZUKIMON]

That's the key though, it's wanting the o2 sensor to tell the computer that it's running rich due to the extra hydrogen fuel coming in, thus making it lean out the gas going to the cylinders. This is what's supposed to make it use less gas, and more hydrogen.   You're right, it's not going to cost too much to make one, and if you have connections, you can get the wallplates and PVC pipe for free.

[Jeremiah]

At least putting one of these things together isn't going to break your pocket book and it might just work,

Doubt it - I have yet to see a working prototype that didn't:
1) Require electrolysis to get any significant HHO & therefore drainage of the battery (or bank of batteries) to be re-replenished via overnight charging (expensive for batts & charger)
2) Some kinda chemical (usually lie or salt) and water that doesn't produce NEARLY enough HHO fast enough to make a difference. Cost of materials has always outweighed any benefit.

I get the temptation, I really do. I was sucked in myself. With rising gas prices, when I ran across something that looked like it could be fabbed cheaply to get good gains in MPG, I was all over it...

I've spent way too much time digging into this. Even had plans written up for wiring, HHO piping, HHO engines w/ ultra-low-pressure caching containers (act like capacitors for when doing hard acceleration), and even an electrical circuit that would regulate how much current would go to the HHO engines (accelerate = higher current = higher HHO output and visa versa). I had redundant safety blow-off valves through the system.

If you want to play around with it, and get the same results everyone else has - that's fine.

CAUTION: This stuff gets very unstable & explosive even at moderate pressure. I highly recommend accounting for SAFE (nowhere near ignition source) relief valves thought the system. Beware of placement in case you get in a collision, or a part on your engine fails / gets hot. Just look up "HHO" or "Brown's Gas" on youtube - you'll see people playing with this stuff in open air (NO pressure) and how explosive it is. It's WAY worse when compressed. be safe, and enjoy - it can be a fun science experiment.

If you succeed with this, congrats, you'll have been the first to disprove the laws of thermodynamics. Remember me when you're a millionare, and send me a Kicker 3 

[viking]

Doubt it - I have yet to see a working prototype that didn't:
1) Require electrolysis to get any significant HHO & therefore drainage of the battery (or bank of batteries) to be re-replenished via overnight charging (expensive for batts & charger)
2) Some kinda chemical (usually lie or salt) and water that doesn't produce NEARLY enough HHO fast enough to make a difference. Cost of materials has always outweighed any benefit.

I get the temptation, I really do. I was sucked in myself. With rising gas prices, when I ran across something that looked like it could be fabbed cheaply to get good gains in MPG, I was all over it...

I've spent way too much time digging into this. Even had plans written up for wiring, HHO piping, HHO engines w/ ultra-low-pressure caching containers (act like capacitors for when doing hard acceleration), and even an electrical circuit that would regulate how much current would go to the HHO engines (accelerate = higher current = higher HHO output and visa versa). I had redundant safety blow-off valves through the system.

If you want to play around with it, and get the same results everyone else has - that's fine.

CAUTION: This stuff gets very unstable & explosive even at moderate pressure. I highly recommend accounting for SAFE (nowhere near ignition source) relief valves thought the system. Beware of placement in case you get in a collision, or a part on your engine fails / gets hot. Just look up "HHO" or "Brown's Gas" on youtube - you'll see people playing with this stuff in open air (NO pressure) and how explosive it is. It's WAY worse when compressed. be safe, and enjoy - it can be a fun science experiment.

If you succeed with this, congrats, you'll have been the first to disprove the laws of thermodynamics. Remember me when you're a millionare, and send me a Kicker 3 

  Have you looked at the Smacksbooster pdf on this?  Is your battery near an ignition source?  Ever see or have a battery blow up?  The electrolyte is Potassium Hydroxide or Caustic Potash.  This system is set up to run only when the engine is running and is best used in conjunction with an oil pressure switch.  It is noted that the with the proper electrolyte mix the system should be drawing about 20 amps, so it would definately need a larger alternator than a stock Samurai, such as a GM.  The reality is that this system probably has no more H2 and O at any given time than a charging battery.  So my thinking is that the same care needs to be observed with this system as with a battery.  By the way I have had a battery blow up and my first thought was that someone was shooting at me.

[ZUKIMON]

  By the way I have had a battery blow up and my first thought was that someone was shooting at me.

Sounds like a 12 gauge shotgun doesn't it?

[viking]

Sounds like a 12 gauge shotgun doesn't it?

  That's for sure, I had to look over myself to see if I had wounds that I didn't feel.  Thankfully I was far enough away and the way the battery was mounted in my tractor provided a shield, also I was wearing coveralls.  The angels were definately looking out for me.

[ack]

Hmm, this is puzzling to say the least. There was a guy on the local news the other day that put this on a Civic and is getting something like 70 mpg.

Oh dear!

There is someone in the Television Journalism business reporting "Amazing Discoveries" without supporting independent proof of the claims???

Or were you watching one of those informercials on the cable/satellite channels?

Yep. I work in TV.  You would be amazed at some of the boneheaded reporting that goes on - mostly in the smaller markets because somebody did not thoroughly check their sources.

My apologies if this sounds like a personal attack, zukimon but it really isn't.  As much as my Ego hates to admit it, I work in an industry full of folks who, like the rest of you, occasionally screw up on the job.  The big difference is that those screwups often turn into urban legends. 

Then there are the infomercial snake-oil sellers playing the "something for nothing" game...

[ZUKIMON]

No offense taken Ack. I know how all this works, but this was on a local channel, FOX18 in Charlotte, NC and they were doing a special on a guy that had claimed his Civic was getting something like 70+ mpg. I didn't see it for myself, but the service manager at work did and told us about it. My service manager is wanting to try this out really bad, so he tries to read everything and watch everything there is about it. I don't know if it's true or not, but it sure does give one hope.

[ack]

Oh the Irony....

I work for a Fox TV station too!

I emailed Fox 18 in Charlotte to see if they aired the story and, if so, asked if they can send my TV station a copy for review.  We have a few businesses in Kansas City including Midwest Research Institiute who might be able to shed some light on this news report and give a definitive answer as to the BS content (or lack thereof) of it.

[ZUKIMON]

That's cool man. It would be really neat if you could verify the validity of this.

[Jeremiah]

That's cool man. It would be really neat if you could verify the validity of this.

People have been trying for over a decade (or two?), it's a story that keeps coming up, and going away... for a reason.

[ack]

People have been trying for over a decade (or two?), it's a story that keeps coming up, and going away... for a reason.

I know, but maybe I can strike a blow for reality by hunting down this particular story and dissecting it until the raw truth is revealed.

I think that you and I share the same point of view on the topic....  but then again, if the harsh light of reality shows the whole idea as a scam, those who believe in the Worldwide Conspiracy of Evil will pooh-pooh the report as OPEC propaganda.

I guess there is no way to kill this once and for all.

Nevermind.

End of thread for me.

[beekiller]

This isn't hydrogen related, but intriguing all the same:

http://www.energy.iastate.edu/Renewable/ammonia/ammonia/2007/Wang1_NH3.pdf




Could this be a good "green" fuel? 

[ZUKIMON]

  Care to explain the last tweelve pages to me?

[beekiller]

  Care to explain the last tweelve pages to me?

Sure.     In a nutshell, ammonia is a viable fuel for IC engines, clean burning (emissions are nitrogen gas, which constitutes around 70% of the atmosphere, and water), cost effective, and could potentially be produced from natural sources whereas it is presently produced using natural gas.  Engines burning ammonia also run cooler as the injection process actually produces a cooling effect.   

[ZUKIMON]

That's sort of what I gathered from it, but wanted to be completely sure.

What has to be done to an engine to run ammonia? Is it cost effective?

[beekiller]

What has to be done to an engine to run ammonia? Is it cost effective?

Cost effective, according to them yes.  Nothing to the engine.  It needs to be run with a fuel primer, that is, gasoline or some other combustible which helps the mixture to reach the temp required for the ammonia to ignite during each cycle.  And I imagine some "jetting" changes as well. 

[ZUKIMON]

What about on an EFI vehicle? There's no jetting to be done on those, but you do have fuel mapping that will change/need to be changed.

[tippy]

i am in the process of making a fuel cell as we speak and i whole heartedly belive that is goin to work. i have everything i need from the anode and cathode plats to the pulse width modualator and i should be on my sammi within 2 weeks and then we will see what happens see if it really works or not but i just hope that it does.

cody

[rockrat]

For those realy interested go to Utube and search ZERO FOSSIL FUEL>> I have watched every video he has done, I have also researched Stanley meyer RIP and Browns fuel, It can work if made properly..

[Jeremiah]

For those realy interested go to Utube and search ZERO FOSSIL FUEL>> I have watched every video he has done, I have also researched Stanley meyer RIP and Browns fuel, It can work if made properly..

Stanley Meyer was a con artist. He was sued by his investors for gross and egregious fraud, and they won after experts examined his vehicle and found that there wasn't anything "special" about what he was doing. Brown's Gas (HHO) does exist - but it takes more energy to created it than the HHO releases. This is basic physics folks...

If it looks like snake oil, and smells like snake oil....

Honestly - if we could just attach a $50 widgit to our trucks, and get 30%+ more MPG... why isn't everyone doing it? This isn't the first time the brown's gas thing has come up... it won't be the last. But, hey... don't take my word for it...

[Jeremiah]

yes it does take energy to make as stated above but so does gas

Gas is distilled from crude oil. I can ignite crude oil. I can't ignite water. Crude oil already has tremendous energy potential, and still takes energy to make it. It's taking something with energy potential, and transforming it to something that can be burned in our vehicle (gasoline, diesel, propane etc). The "cracking" done to make H2O into HHO takes a lot of energy - more than it's going to give by 'igniting', and going back to water.

my problem is that there are people on this site and others that think it is impossible to get something to run on water, i think they just talk and don't do any research on the subject

I think it's VERY possible to run a combustion engine on HHO. I DON'T think a HHO generator on-board is going to create MPG gains.

The "but, it's an additive" argument a-la I'm-trying-to-sell-you-a-product web sides like this:
"Critics of HHO technology that invoke the first law of thermodynamics usually do so saying, that there is no such thing as a perpetual motion machine. What the critics fail to recognize however, is that HHO is a fuel additive, so no one is talking about a perpetual motion machine."

You're STILL describing perpetual motion because the HHO generator is on-board & using energy from the engine to make energy for the engine. Making it closed system, and therefore in violation of the laws of thermo dynamics.

More info on the HHO scam:
http://www.aardvark.co.nz/hho.shtml
http://www.slicknslack.com/2008/07/hho-scam-part-iv-its-the-thermodynamics-stupid/
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/automotive_clinic/4260857.html

If I hear the "but if we don't try, we'll never know" thing one more time, I'm going to throw up in my mouth a little. This is NOT a new concept, and has been debunked over and over again since the 70's.

i guess they have never seen city buses running on hydrogen.

Two different things:
1) Making HHO off the energy from the engine, then burning it in that same engine.
2) Production hydrogen powered vehicles use fuel ALREADY made elsewhere (taking energy to make at a plant), then added to the vehicle.

If anyone insists on doing this anyway - BE CAREFUL, make blow-off valves that vent to SAFE places. HHO is highly explosive and dangerous... and gets VERY unstable if it's pressurized. Vent off all HHO when vehicle is turned off with a relay and / or scavenge pump. This is some no-joke crazy explosive stuff. Look it up on the internet if you want to have fun with it and blow things up.

As stated before: I'd like this to work but I doubt it will. I just don't see it working as described. There's people trying to separate you from your money everywhere, an they *gasp* lie. They're dang good at it too. After all, who wouldn't want to save $$$ on gas by just adding a cheap HHO engine & water? It's attractive... that's what makes the scam so good... In other words, I'll believe it when a good study by a non-biased source comes out and says it works. Until then, all I see are people saying, "Hey, it works, and I'll sell you the tech to do it too!"

[rockrat]

Dont be a sheeples.... There are many things that work now, that went against supposed Physics in the past.. The reason it is being considered cons is the government... Does not want you to try. And I leave with this.. If My Yukon gets 10mpg and after makeing this system and installing it I get 17mpg am I defiying Physics.. You can qoute BS web posted critiques all day but HAVE you tried it.. Chances are the Nay sayers have not and are ok with getting screwed by the Oils company.

BTW Do you know where BROWN is nobody else does. Do you know the other 2 guys Meyers included Were both Found DEAD in there homes from Mysteriuos Food poisoning.

[Jeremiah]

Sounds like snake-oil sales tactics to me. None of it is evidence this technology working as advertised. Because it's been established for several decades this technology doesn't work - the burden of proof lays on the people trying to say the laws of physics don't apply here.

HHO is something high school kids learn in chem class - it's all over youtube. A device can be made to generate & ignite HHO in your kitchen in about 10 min. If you believe you can get 70% gains from this $50 device, a little water & baking soda (salt? I forget) - go for it. I don't think the black helicopters are out to get anyone. It's not that hard to make & hook up. Could probably be done in a weekend once all the parts are gathered up. Please don't blow yourself up... learn about HHO and it's hazards before playing with it.

It's easy to fab up, so why aren't more people doing it? Why aren't the Dyno numbers out there? Where's the "check out the new miracle product" demonstrations?

[GravtyKlz]

I'm seriously considering doing this.  Would it be a good idea to use water removal fuel additives in the gas tank with this kind of system?

[Indy]

Sounds like snake-oil sales tactics to me. None of it is evidence this technology working as advertised. Because it's been established for several decades this technology doesn't work - the burden of proof lays on the people trying to say the laws of physics don't apply here.

HHO is something high school kids learn in chem class - it's all over youtube. A device can be made to generate & ignite HHO in your kitchen in about 10 min. If you believe you can get 70% gains from this $50 device, a little water & baking soda (salt? I forget) - go for it. I don't think the black helicopters are out to get anyone. It's not that hard to make & hook up. Could probably be done in a weekend once all the parts are gathered up. Please don't blow yourself up... learn about HHO and it's hazards before playing with it.

It's easy to fab up, so why aren't more people doing it? Why aren't the Dyno numbers out there? Where's the "check out the new miracle product" demonstrations?

And where are the 5 second drop in 1/4 mile times?  Seeing as I've heard of a friend of a friends's cousins dad getting 50% better economy on HHO, there must be a similar correlation to HP produced with full fuel mix+HHO.  So home-brew drag racers should all be running it if it gives an extra 50% HP for $50.

And to the guy above, you only draw gas from device no water.  And if you suck a little water in the additive wouldn't have time to do anything before hitting the combustion chamber.  A little water while the engine is running wouldn't damage anything anyway, and it will clean some carbon from the cylinders in the process.

 

[sukikid]

Yeah I made one for a science project this year at school. Made some bubbles, blew some coke bottles up, and wasted a lot of gas driving around. The thing reduced my gas mileage. What a load of crap. Still fun doing it though and got me an A in chemisty

[R/T]

I have another electronics tech in my class that has done this set up on a 454. His gas mileage is quite a bit better. He's making a few changes and doing some tests. I'll get a real report in a couple weeks and have some real world data.

[ZUKIMON]

Any new data Roy?

[kelcrist]

i was checking into this a great deal  before i got my samurai as i have 460 ford that needs all the help it can get.      the bottom line is  the technology (if youd call it that) can work.     BUT   there are a great deal of variables to take into account.

as i see it, and im no phycisist................    it depends greatly on what your putting the system on and what your design is.        some guys are reporting good results and some are very mediocre. also as stated here in this thread.......some dont see any results at all.  there are many devices out there claiming to improve milage. everything from the condensator to the vortex.    im sure they may work better on some vehicles than others.

my advice is do your research,  compare the designs that are out there.  there are quite a few sites with people selling complete systems.

if you ask me, which no one did..........   this is the sort of thing our country needs.  people in the garage trying to make a change.   its how we got our cars, bikes, computers, etc etc in the first place.       

 GOOD LUCK!!!!

[87samurai]

What do you guys think of this?? my dad showed it to me, im not sure if i beilieve it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Solar-Panels-3-HHO-Generators-RUN-YOUR-CAR-ON-WATER_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ66Q3a2Q7c65Q3a3Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem290274683825QQitemZ290274683825QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

[ZUKIMON]

What do you guys think of this?? my dad showed it to me, im not sure if i beilieve it.

Well, without elaborating on the matter, simply spell check what he wrote about the setup. That alone tells me that it isn't worth the parts it's made out of.   I'd almost bet my paycheck that you could purchase what is there individually for about 1/3 of the asking price. It's also kind of shody work from where I sit.

[knunns]

I did this to my car using a whirlpool filter 9 stainless steel plates and stainless steel bolts, wires..watever at first it worked running it into my vacuum lines but soon my computer took it back over. Ive heard in a carburated motor it would work better. After spending the entire summer doing research and building about 30 of these things for people it seems that it doesnt get as much of an increase as most people say without some other costly equipment not the ebay knockoff's. Having done it all before i would say it was a great learning process but i would rather not put that much money for an extra 5 or so. I guess it all comes down to how much research you put into it and the value of your time.

If anybody wants to try.. ive got a fuel sell that draws 20 amps and creates about 2 liter of hho in 2 minutes. pay hipping and 20 bucks for the material and its yours. try it for yourself lol

[kelcrist]

if you look at the little box with the adjuster on that ebay listing that is what  a fuel infected car needs for the hydrogen generator to work.  you have to fool the oxygen sensor because the gas you are introducing makes the o2 sensor read lean and you know what happens from there.    like you said.........it can be a lot of work for 3-4 mpg.    this is why some cars may respond better to this than others.     like i said...........lots of variables.     i dont see how one unit could be marketed for the many many configurations of engines, computers and fuel systems.     

[knunns]

yep exactly. I ran that computer and it didnt work out Its a good principle just not ready to be produced

[Jeremiah]

I finally saw a system that makes sense:
A guy's using solar energy to split the H2O into HHO. He hold this gas in tanks that fuel his house & vehicle. Because you're not dealing with the energy loss of making the HHO "on board" from the vehicles engine / electrical system, it's not a net loss! The tanks he's using look like propane tanks, and have cost him a LOT of money. He's hoping he can develop a commercial system soon.

[Indy]

What's he using to compress the gas?

[Jeremiah]

Very few details were released. I think he's shopping for investors, and doubtless he's not wanting to release any more info than he has to until his product is rolling out to customers. And, like most new tech, I doubt it will be cheap to buy it from them. A bank of solar panels alone is spendy, let alone storage tanks, compressors, safety valves, and whatever needs to be done to convert the home.

[fireman_033]

   I know this is an old dead thread just read through it and was thinkin bout the dead folks that have tried this John kaffenberger use to own a local video store and sound shop he sold everything to invest in some sort of "car that runs on  water you'll see" he personally said to me and about a year later they found him dead in mexico....   odd to say the least.   Scott

[Indy]

We had a guy that ran all over town for 6 months yelling that the tree people were after him, he died at my feet.  Odd, but that doesn't mean the tree people were after him.

[fireman_033]

   I dont think he was killed just odd is all.....after all he was in mexico and theres no tellin what extra carricular activities were goin on. You could say the man killed him but I dont think so. Scott

[mentalbreakdown00]

OK i'm still confused about all this HHO stuff. I've read it doesnt make sense cause it takes more power to produce than it makes. WTH does that mean? I've made an HHO generator, it pulled around 30 amps, I never got around to putting it onto a vehicle. So what if it takes 30 amps from an altenator that's already having to turn and charge the battery anyway. Making an altenator produce a slight amount more amperage is better than buying more gasoline....I do not understand what is the deal with that statement like th argument that an engineer will give you that a electric fan cannot give you better mileage bacause it makes the altenator work harder creating more drag...uhh still has 1/4 less drag cause there is not a 15 lb fan haning on the end of a water pump to turn anymore. Any explinations on this please.

[fireman_033]

  Ok I am not sayin the theory is correct just gonna try to explain a little.  I the alternator is havin to put out an extra 30 amps to run the hho generator the it is luggin the hell out of the engine. Just connect it to your battery and turn it on and listen to the engine lug. Kinda like hookin jumper cables up to a dead vehicle. Now that bein said will the gas make up for that load when it hits the engine?  I understand the theory on both ends just dont know how well either stand up.  Scott

[Indy]

There's soooo many different things that play into this and even with a physics background it's hard to put them all together over the keyboard so they make any kind of sense to someone else.  If it was face to face it would be a lot easier.  Facts of the matter is HHO by itself is a net loss.  There is no way possible that it can produce enough energy to sustain itself, much less increase power through the engine.  You can't increase mileage without increasing available energy from the same amount of fuel.  The fallback argument is always that it somehow makes the existing fuel burn better/different etc. but I'm not aware of any information that shows it to be so.   

You have to ignore subjective information like "It felt like".  I know that strapping a 400lb spoiler on a honda slows it down, but every kid that does it will tell you how much faster it suddenly is.  Same thing.  One of the cool things about science is that it's repeatable.  If a system works you have to be able to hand it to your buddy Bob and get the same results as what you did.

So practical example as above:

I don't know how many amps my sammi pulls just running.  It's non FI so theirs not a lot of electrical going on at any given time except for heat and/lights.  So I'm running a CSI alt, good low down power.  I idle at about 900 rpm with no load, turn on heater and lights and the additional pull from the alt drops my idle to about 700, and the volt meter shows a slight drop in output from the lower rpm.  So to get my rpms back up to keep the system at full charge I have add 200 rpms worth off fuel.  It's not a lot at any given time, but it's a constant drain.  Now assuming I'm pulling 30 amps at idle, as soon as the HHO generator powers up, I've just doubled that load and doubled that constant drain.

So now the argument is "But if the HHO produces more power than it robs, it's a net gain!"  Doesn't work.  You've got the entire line of laws of thermodynamics coming into play and have to consider what happens when you convert energy from one form to another.  And that is for every energy conversion, you lose energy.  When you introduce 30 amps of energy into the water part of that energy is being converted into heat.  So for 30 amps worth of work into the system you're getting 30 amps - x(heat) of energy out of the system  available to be used.  Then when the HHO is in the engine it gets converted again, so you've got 30 amps -2x of energy in the system.  But the engine has to turn the alternator to to run the HHO system so some of the energy made is being used to overcome the additional alternator load AND additional friction being created by it, so you've got 30 amps -3x energy from the system.

It's like using a battery to power a motor to turn an alt to charge the battery.  In a 100% efficient system, and electric motors are pretty efficient, the machine will run perpetually and you will be rich beyond your wildest dreams.  But it can't because the system will always use more energy to run itself than it can produce.

So the next argument is always "I'll make the generator at home and store it on the car to drive!"  Yep, you've bypassed the on board creation problem.  But 1.  You get to travel around with a nice homemade hydrogen bomb on your car and 2.  it doesn't matter.  It takes the same amount of energy to convert the water no matter where it's plugged in.  So your electric bill goes up instead of your gas bill, especially considering that these generators produce next to nothing for gas.  I've seen the 2 liter soda vids and it may be impressive until you figure out that your engine will empty that 2 liter bottle of gas in about 1/50th the time it took to create.  So that's a whole lot of time of non stop 30 amp draw on your homes electrical system.

So what would an actually working system do?  It has to produce the same amount of work using a lesser fuel load.  The only way for that to happen is to increase the amount of energy being used for the same amount of fuel supplied. 

So it would have to work on a fixed fuel supply engine, like a carb.  The carb makes no adjustments like a FI engine that changes mix constantly.  So at idle turn on the HHO and your idle speed would have to increase from the added fuel.  On a Dyno you would see a HP gain over the entire range since the old fuel supply is still being added + the additional energy from the HHO.  Think Nitrous.  But nowhere have I read evidence that such a thing happens.

Every positive experience has been on a FI engine and they always start out with failure.  "I added HHO and saw a loss in mileage."  Totally expected for all the reasons above.  You can't hitch on a trailer and expect your mileage to go up.  Answer: "That's because your computer has to be adjusted by a new O2 sensor, and this extender etc etc etc. to do whatever".    Then "Hey I added the stuff and it works!"  And my fav. so far "I even had my system break  somewhere in the middle of a 1000 mile trip and I still got the better mileage!?!?!?"  That's great except all the bits and pieces you just did does nothing other than force the engine to run lean all the time.  A leaner mix is a hotter mix and hotter does produce more power.  It also damages the engine over time and produces a whole lot more pollutants.  And the key to the last one is the fact that system on or not, you got the same results. 

So long story short, waaaay too late, but anyway 1. the HHO is a net loss to the system.  Always will be, no other way.  2. The systems used can't even provide enough gas to actually be usable to the system it's running on.  3.  It doesn't work on carb'd engines since you can't fool a hunk of aluminum.  Just jet it down really lean and buy some backup pistons.

And 4.  There's several people offering Million dollar + rewards to anyone who can provide a working system.  Out of all the people claiming success (and offering to sell you plans for $50) no-one has claimed the prizes.  If I had a system that's saving me $10 a fill-up, you can be darn sure I'd be typing this from a beach chair surrounded by hot women instead of from my office and watching the snow fall out my window.

[Indy]

And don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to be wrong about things like this.  If somewhere this somehow this turns into a workable system, I will have no trouble admitting I was wrong.  But I hate that people prey on others, even for $50 a whack.  Even old Stanley that HHO advocates seem to worship did nothing but take enough high school science to make it believable to a layperson and then collect checks.  Been the same story with the same twists since the 70's when he first popped out his little magic VW.

[ack]

OK i'm still confused about all this HHO stuff. I've read it doesnt make sense cause it takes more power to produce than it makes. WTH does that mean? I've made an HHO generator, it pulled around 30 amps, I never got around to putting it onto a vehicle. So what if it takes 30 amps from an altenator that's already having to turn and charge the battery anyway. Making an altenator produce a slight amount more amperage is better than buying more gasoline....I do not understand what is the deal with that statement like th argument that an engineer will give you that a electric fan cannot give you better mileage bacause it makes the altenator work harder creating more drag...uhh still has 1/4 less drag cause there is not a 15 lb fan haning on the end of a water pump to turn anymore. Any explinations on this please.

Indy's post - the points about Conservation of Energy - describes the problems of HHO consuming more energy than it creates.  Good description, Indy!

About electric radiator fans...  They actually do save money because they ONLY load down the engine - through the alternator - when they are electrically activated by a coolant temperature sensor switch.  The temperature sensor switch does "consume" tiny amounts heat to activate the electric fan but the amount consumed is incredibly small compared to the energy that would be lost running the electric fan continuously.  Compare the temperature sensor switch to the common lever and fulcrum:  You can use a small amount of energy to lift a large mass with a properly-set-up lever and fulcrum. you can also use a small amount of energy to control a much larger quantity of energy with a sensor switch. 

A normal mechanical fan always presents a load to the engine  - through the drive belt - no matter how hot (or cold) the engine is thus producing wasted load on the engine.  This is especially true in the winter time.

Physics is a complicated topic - but it is UNDERSTANDABLE.  It has logic. It has structure.  There is no "black magic" involved except in the minds of those who choose not to make the effort to understand Physics - even in it's basic form.   Those here who know something about physics paid attention in High School.  Those that know more about physics than us "High Schoolers", made a financial commitment in various forms of higher education.

The "black magic" crowd WILL learn something by buying into the something-for-nothing HHO fuel cell scam.  Unfortunately, they will be too embarrassed to pass on their discoveries to the rest of us becauee that is how a scam works!

Finally, English grammar rules are a handy thing to know.  It makes one's writing easier to read by others.

Once again, I have wasted an hour of my life on this totally pointless and unproductive thread... and made enemies in the process!

[ZukiEd]

I got to take a look at a hydrogen fuel cell obviously different that A hydrogen powered ICE engine. It was while i was in college down in ohio in my alternative fuel class. It was a ford focus (a million dollar) Ford focus. all carbon fiber, prototype low rolling resistance tires. The ford Rep Told us Told us it was a zero emission vehicle But as he was talking and had thing thing "running" Are Noxious gas alarms started going off he instantly said it wasnt the car, he turned it off, alarm goes off, he starts it back up alarms blare. The fuel cell wont be doable for year and years until they can get the price of the cell down. I cant remember the price of the cell but it needed to be changed 25k miles at a 50k price. due to the membrane that seperates the hydrogen. The really only problem that stops hydrogen from being feesable In a ICE engine  is that no matter what container they put it in it evaporates. Propane and cng are ready oil companines are just to corrupt and have to much power.

[ddement]

   I know this is an old dead thread just read through it and was thinkin bout the dead folks that have tried this John kaffenberger use to own a local video store and sound shop he sold everything to invest in some sort of "car that runs on  water you'll see" he personally said to me and about a year later they found him dead in mexico....   odd to say the least.   Scott

I worked for john for a long time, the drugs are what did him and the business in.

[Bigrob26]

just recently i tested to see how much amperage was being drawn at startup... this was on a jeep with a modified high comp. engine so it required more to turn over...
the most amps being drawn was it spiked at 12-13 and almost instantly went down and sat around 2-3 amps
with all accesories turned on (lights, fan, radio, flashers, wipers, ect.) there was about 20 amps being drawn (i dont exactly remember the number)
a 30 amp hho genearator drawing 30 amps would mean the total amps ever being drawn would be 50-60 at MOST!!!!!  and the alternator is capable of producing 90 amps.....
we are puttng an hho kit in his jeep
it should improve mileage because it burns faster than gasoline, and cooler due to the fact that it burns faster, also increase power because it is burning all the fuel much more efficiently.. if set up correctly with an EFIE it is possible to fool the computer that everything is NORMAL. the company producing these kits says (for this specific model) 20% increase in power, and up to 50% increase in fuel economy
some have even gotten more
here you can check it out.. http://www.hhokitsdirect.com/
if you really want to know how it works PM me in a few weeks. we are installing friday after thanksgiving
 

[ZUKIMON]

You post back in two tanks and let us know.

[Willc]

Silly Kids woodgas is the HHO

[ack]

Silly Kids woodgas is the HHO

Good idea Willc!

I read about woodgas when I was a kid reading "the Boy Mechanic" published sometime before 1920.

No, I ain't THAT old...  I had grandparents who were avid readers.

I also recall that a lot of folks out in the country used woodgas during WWII when they ran out of ration tickets.  Heck, I seem to recall that Mother Earth News had a few articles on the topic!

At least it isn't bogus technology...

Do a search for wood gas at youtube.com

It takes a bit of setting up. but I bet you could have a lot of success cheaply running your truck with wood gas over HHO.

[ZUKIMON]

Kind of funny that this should be brought up. I just watched a show the other night about a Toyota that got converted to wood gas.   I wish I could remember what channel or the name of the show, but it's pretty cool.

[ack]

You post back in two tanks and let us know.

Hmmm....

It's January 3, 2010 and BigRob26 hasn't posted after 2 tanks.

One wonders why...

[Bigrob26]

first of all it was not my vehicle
second, here in minnesota weve been having below zero days and the pottasium hydroxide in the generator only protects to a certain temperature, either we didnt have enough of it or it was just too cold, but just days after the install it froze and leaked all over so it as been off and will remain off until it is warm enough

[ZUKIMON]

Thanks for the reply, and I understand about the weather.

Here's the thing........it's just been proven time and time again, over decades that things like this just can't work.   I wish they could, really I do. I'd be running it if it did, and I have access to making something like this for free, even on a large scale.

It's the same issue or beating of the said, dead horse, that people get when they talk about using these fancy little electric heaters to heat their home that claim to run on pennies a day. You just can't get the power out without sacrificing something else, resulting in increased prices somewhere else. Please make sure you let us know what happens when spring gets here and make sure to fill the tank as soon as you put the unit back on.

[Bigrob26]

for the short time that it was working we did notice an immediate increase in power

and i do understand where you are coming from. there is alot of sources out there on either side of the argument, im just as anxious as id expect you to be, to see it for myself and try to get the truth

im going to continue to keep an open mind until i can physically see the results for myself