Whining 5 speed tranny, what to do?

[skyhiranger]

After searching and reading through some posts here, I found that the whining sound in the tranny is very likely from wore out bearings.  It has a whining noise in gears 1, 2, 3, and 5, while under load.  4th gear is quiet and all gears are quiet while coasting.  Recently replaced clutch, pilot and throw out bearings, resurfaced flywheel....so I am sure that is not causing the noise.
Some posts suggested just replacing the tranny and not trying to rebuild it, since other parts (other than bearings and synchros) may be worn too, and bearing/synchro replacement will not be a permanent fix.
So here is my dilemma.....I can buy 2 or 3 trannys for what 1 rebuild kit would cost....easy choice right?.....not really.  #1) finding a tranny (I have a 16V, so it has the higher 5th gear, than the 5 speeds found in the much more common 8Vs), #2) If I do find a tranny, what's to say it isn't going to have the same problem (the trannys are non-returnable).
Another possible option.....I have a spare 2wd tranny from a 16V, but I have always been under the impression that 2wd tranny's can not be converted to 4wd trannys.....is this correct?  Or can the back half of the 4wd tranny case and output shaft be swapped over to the 2wd tranny to make it a 4wd tranny?
One more question....if all I can find are the 8V trannys, with the lower 5th gear.....can the 5th gear clusters be swapped from a 16V tranny to an 8V tranny, to get the higher ratio 5th?  I know you can do this on samurai trannys, but I am not familiar with the trackick manual trannys and how all the gears work together.

[TVT]

First of all an opinion,  If you are running even the slightest size larger tires then you would benefit from the 8V overdrive ratio... over a 16v ratio...

Yes anyone can swap a 4WD output shaft (which is the proper length to accept a t-case) into a 2WD case (since you usually want to keep the best cluster gear).

The Issues are several...

There's labor or expertise and the proper pullers involved in removing the collars, gears, and sliders so you keep the same gears with the cluster that came with the cluster...

Then Why do you want the 2WD cluster ?? Well maybe because your Heavily worn Input shaft has also worn out the 1st set of teeth on the cluster...

BUT ALSO... when in fourth gear is the only time that the input shaft and the output shaft are "held together" by the shifter's slider mechanism.

IF you are experiencing noise in all but 4th (fourth is one to one) meaning the 4th gear slider has coupled the two shafts together, then the noise is either coming from the cluster under load... which indicates most likely worn teeth... OR the noise is coming from the input shaft bearing... which sits straighter in line when in 4th gear...

IF your input shaft bearing is bad enough... it will also effect the needle bearings In-between the input and output shafts...  This is an issue if your 4WD output shaft is damaged, because a loose input shaft (due to worn bearings) is likely to have already damaged your output shaft...

As for 5th speed gears...  they look to be interchangeable Between ratios... and relatively easy, compared to a rear shaft swap...

OH YEA... I forgot to mention the #1 cause of all this input bearing mess...
Its from running a bad pilot bearing... Most (almost all) I have seen NEEDED replacing BEFORE the clutch disc wore out the FIRST time... In other words... Its an inherent problem that we all (TrackKick 5 speed owners) are experiencing unless the pilot bearings have been checked and replaced...

ON a better note... I seem to have found several good Transmissions on E-bay... I took a chance with most of them (a couple were very low mileage) and seem to have gotten good ones...

To check if they are good... look for any wear, (smalling) of the input shaft at the point where it slides into the pilot bearing... next you need to shake the shaft in its bearings.  If there is any side to side movement in the shaft... then it has already incurred wear... and is not going to live long...

My personal rule of thumb is... If the input shaft is bad then it has affected the whole tranny, but the 5th gear set should be still good...

Lastly... a 2WD trans is just as likely to be worn as a 4WD because they are driven a lot on the street... now if it were a 4WD, the clutch might have worn out a little faster and the Pilot bearing may have already been replaced... saving your transmission... Those 4WD's decked out for off road, may have not seen as many actual miles due to Lift, big tires, No A/C, etc...  OR they may have had a stronger clutch installed (and the pilot replaced)...
 
I like my automatics, they just don't get the fuel economy of my 5 speed TrackKicks...

Jeff

[skyhiranger]

Thanks for the info TVT.
You probably don't remember....but a while ago I had some issues with the tranny not wanting to go into 1st and reverse gears (grinding)....I thought maybe it was synchros then......I ended up replacing a badly worn clutch and needing to run a wider pilot bearing to compensate for the worn tip of the input shaft, everything was working fine from that point, up until now......got a lot of good info from you then too.
I am running a sidekick with 225/75 tires.....so the .795 (16V tranny) is perfect for me.  I definitely don't want to change to the 8V (.86) tranny/ratio. 
My reasoning for converting a 2wd tranny to a 4wd one...#1) I have it, #2) It has the correct 5th ratio, #3) If it is good (I haven't ran it), it saves me having to buy another tranny. 
It sounds like it is quite involved (some specialized tools and such?), to swap everything from a 2wd output shaft to a 4wd output shaft.....I thought maybe it was a little easier than that.
Yes, I am getting a fairly loud (abnormal) noise/whine in all gears under load (even reverse), except for 4th gear (there might be a slight noise there, but very hard to tell, it may just be normal tranny sounds)....the loud/abnormal noise just got noticeable recently.....so you think it is bearings or teeth?  Can I get by with a rebuild kit (bearings and synchros), or should I just get another tranny (providing the shaft tip isn't worn and has no wobble) and take my chances with it ?
If the 5th gear clusters can be swapped, then that is better for me.....if I decide to swap trannys (providing I can find a good 5 speed tranny), I can swap gears, if the 5th gear ratio isn't right.

[TVT]

... It sounds like it is quite involved (some specialized tools and such?), to swap everything from a 2wd output shaft to a 4wd output shaft.....I thought maybe it was a little easier than that.
... Can I get by with a rebuild kit (bearings and synchros)

If you installed the complete rebuild kit... I think you would be removing everything important off the output shaft... so that would a be similar level or expertise and tools requirement...

By specialized tools, I just meant you would need the talent to pick the right gear separators so as to not damage anything... as they are close together and about half get pulled from the front and half from the back end of the shaft...

I think you WILL see wear on the teeth, The teeth on the Input shaft may be sharp on the end from wobbling in the bearings. The teeth that mesh with these are the first row of teeth on the cluster. I would not consider a rebuild kit myself... unless synchronizers were causing trouble... (and then it would way down the road... when good trans are no longer available for cheep $$)

Jeff

[skyhiranger]

Ok, thanks for the input.....I will search for another tranny.

[skyhiranger]

Well, my search for another 4wd tranny didn't go so well.  I didn't find anything....and these were yards that usually have a few 16V trackicks at any given time.
So.....
I got the tranny pulled out of the sidekick and got it taken apart.  There was a lot of metal shavings on the drain plug and in the oil....but it appeared to be all bearing shavings.  The rear bearing on the countershaft was waaaaay sloppy (I am thinking that is where the metal shavings came from) and the front input shaft bearing and needle bearing had some play in them.  While turning the input shaft by hand, I could feel the roughness of the bearings (or at least that is what it felt like to me).  Looking over the gear teeth, I saw no abnormal wear on them (no sharp or pointy ends on the teeth)....so I am very much considering getting a rebuild kit and going that route....even though it may not be the best choice, I don't have weeks to look for a suitable tranny to swap in, and after checking the 2wd tranny I have, I found it had a little bit of play in the input shaft as well.....not as much as the tranny I took out....but I don't really want to go to the trouble of converting that tranny to a 4wd one, just to get it installed and having the same problems with it.
Thanks for the help and advice.

[skyhiranger]

Update:
Got the rebuild kit installed and the tranny put back in.  No more whining/growling noise....nice and quiet ....and it seems to shift a little smoother too.  Now, if it lasts another 140K, I'll be happy....hell, if it would last 50K, I'd be happy.
I also left the long top bolt out of the tcase (the one that is inaccessable without removing the tranny shifter housing) and clearanced the top of it for the tranny shift housing....so I can pull just the tcase, if ever needed.

[crikeymike]

How long did the rebuild take, and how difficult would you say it was?  I have to do the same to mine at some point soon.

[skyhiranger]

Hard to say exactly how long it took......about a week total....but that was removing tranny, tearing it down (1 day), ordering rebuild kit (ebay $150...appears to be a good quality kit....koyo, NTN bearings, with synchros and seals), waiting on parts, cleaning parts, reinstalling parts, reinstalling tranny.  I would say if you would have the parts ahead of time, you could do it in one really long day or 2 regular days.

As far as difficulty.....
This was the first tranny I had ever rebuilt (or even had open).....I have rebuild engines, tcases, etc.....so if you have a decent amount of mechanical aptitude and are good at paying attention to detail, then you shouldn't have any problems.
My best advice is to carefully disassemble the parts, lay them out in the order and position they were removed (most are obvious how they go back together, but there are some parts that can go back together reversed/upsidedown (sleeves, washers) and they are not the same on both sides.  Pay particuliar attention to the "keys" (as labeled on the diagram posted).....the set for one of the "sleeve/hub" assemblies (can't remember which one) are not the same on each end....but if you forget, the hub "spring" spacings, on the hub is slightly different, in relation from the outer edge of the hub to the spring, so you should be able to figure out how they go (I didn't notice the key difference, when I disassembled them, but was able to figure out how they went by the slight difference in the spring spacing from the edge of the hub.  Pay attention to the little balls (I think there are 3 on the rear part of the main shaft, IIRC) that keep the washers from spinning on the shaft (they fall out easy, when taking things apart, and like to bounce away, when they hit the cement).

I didn't need to use the diagram posted, and it doesn't show enough detail of the parts that can be installed reversed/backwards, to help any.

[CurreyRob]

How long did the rebuild take, and how difficult would you say it was?  I have to do the same to mine at some point soon.

mike, if ya need the rebuild kit, let me know ...

I bought one to rebuild my whiny 5spd, but have since decided to simply throw an auto in instead ...

[skyhiranger]

mike, if ya need the rebuild kit, let me know ...

I bought one to rebuild my whiny 5spd, but have since decided to simply throw an auto in instead ...

Just an FYI, the rebuild kits are slightly different between a 2wd, a 4wd, and the 89-98, and the 98+ trannys.  I think just a couple of different bearing sizes is all though.

[TVT]

Well you do have to pull everything off the output shaft...

It doesn't slide off easily (when clips removed) as on a GM saginaw 4 sp, for example...

What style of puller (or Gear separator) did you use ??

Maybe your choice of equipment was nearly perfect... I would like to acquire the ideal sizes/styles for use on this transmission... I don't care to work on anything but TrackKicks, and maybe the sammi trans...

Glad you got thru it well, your  testimony is one that will encourage more of us... in the future... to attempt such an overhaul, or perhaps a 2wd to 4wd output shaft swap... as I eventually plan.

Jeff

[skyhiranger]

TVT, you are correct there are a few things that have to be pulled off the mainshaft, even after the clips are taken off.....such as bearings and bushings.....but a lot of the parts do just slide off the shaft.  The splined parts, that are slid onto the part of the shaft that is splined, are not actually on there that tight......you can grab onto them and tap the end of the shaft on a block of wood and they will slide off.
For pulling the bearings, bushings, etc., I used a Harbor Freight bearing puller/separator, some 1/2" all-threads 12" long, and part of an old pulley puller.......I'll try to get some pics and post up of the "contraption", if I can remember. 
For reinstalling the new bearings and bushings, I just used some pipe that was the correct diameter to fit over the shaft, but would still contact the inner "sleeve" of the bearings......a punch or drift can be used too.....but you have to be very careful to not slip off and damage either the shaft and/or the inner part (balls and cage) of the bearings.  Of course, a press and some pipe sleeves would have been the "proper" tools to use....but I didn't have a press.

The separator in the first link here is what I actually used.....it is for bigger diameter bearings than what is in the trackick tranny.....but it is what I had, and it worked.

The separator in the second link would probably be better suited for pulling the sizes of bearings that are in trackick trannys.  Although, it might be a little small for the bigger bearings, since it says it is for up to 2 1/4" bearings.

The separators in the third link would probably work even better, but it doesn't have long enough extension legs to pull the inner bearings (the 12" all-threads that I used were just barely long enough to work).

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=3979

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=7343

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93980

[skyhiranger]

Below are some pics of the puller I used for pulling the bearings and bushings.
The threaded bolt hole in the center of the silver piece is stripped out.  That is why there is a short pointed bolt in there (needed to keep the puller centered on the end of the shaft).  Therefore, to pull the bearings, I had to put a wrench on the nuts on the end of the threaded rods and alternatively turn the nuts.  Sometimes the threaded rods would turn, while I was turning the nut...to keep them from turning, I ran 2 nuts into the center of the rods and tightened them together (the same way you "double nut" a stud to remove it) and then put a wrench on one of the "double nuts" to hold the rod in place, while turning the nut on the end of the rod.