Sidekick 1.6 16 valve problem

[fourwheeler]

Just when I get my Samurai all squared away I bought a 95 Sidekick 1.6 16 valve. It idled a little rough so I did a tune-up on it. Idles bad,but runs good down the road. I did notice that the fireing order was different. Instead of 1 3 4 2 mine is 1 2 4 3. If I put it to the correct fireing order it has no power at and backfires through the intake. I have a code 51 EGR,pulled the EGR vavle and cleaned it,did the vacum test on it out of the truck and put it back in and cleared the code. then today light came back on again,tried a vacum test while in the truck and no movement of the valve. New one will be here tomorrow. But have no idea why it idles like crap and the different fireing order. Any Ideas?

[toykick]

I have read that a bad EGR valve will make your motor idle rough.

[fourwheeler]

quess I'll find out later this morning,have a new one comming in.

[skyhiranger]

16V distributors spin counter clockwise, not clockwise like the 1.6 8V trackick and the 1.3 samurai engines.   You were taking that into account, right?
The EGR code is probably because the EGR passages in the engine itself are clogged/restricted.  You may be able to get by with pulling the EGR valve and cleaning the engine passages with a stiff wire, lots of brake cleaner/carb cleaner and some compressed air. 
There are several threads on here discussing the EGR, the EGR code, and the passage cleaning......do a seach and you can read for hours about it.

[fourwheeler]

Ok pulled the egr valve that I cleaned and put back in. It worked but I went and changed it anyway. Cleared the codes and took it for a run. Everything was fine light stayed off until I went to talke it out later. Light on again and running rough. Went through the wireing diagram and after finding out the cruise doesn't work either and with the idle dropping. I'm kind of leaning towards the ECM,is it possible? I'd hate to buy a new one and have it do the same thing.

[skyhiranger]

Ok pulled the egr valve that I cleaned and put back in. It worked but I went and changed it anyway. Cleared the codes and took it for a run. Everything was fine light stayed off until I went to talke it out later. Light on again and running rough. Went through the wireing diagram and after finding out the cruise doesn't work either and with the idle dropping. I'm kind of leaning towards the ECM,is it possible? I'd hate to buy a new one and have it do the same thing.

I doubt it is the ECM. 95s usually don't have ECM problems.
I would still say it is the EGR passages in the head and intake are clogged or restricted. The symptoms you are having (EGR code, rough running, low idle) are typical of EGR passage restrictions.
How did you clean the passages exactly?

[fourwheeler]

Throttle body cleaner and a small flat scredriver into the openings behind the egr. On the one closest to the block I got NO blow back from the cleaner, but the outside one kept blowing back and the screwdriver only goes in a short distance. I was just thinking the hole was to small for it. I was reading in the arcives about the tubes too<i wonder if they are clogged. When I first pulled the egr it wouldn't move at all until I sprayede it good and then took a pic and scraped the inside.Need to get this fixed fast for inspection in Maryland. Next week I go under the knife for my left wrist and won't be doing much for awhile after that.

[skyhiranger]

The one closest to the block goes to the exhaust manifold.  It usually doesn't clog, or get restricted like the other one tend to do.  If you pull the intake manifold, the passage across the back of the head is straight clear over to the exhaust manifold, so it is easy to clean.
The other one goes into the intake manifold and into each of the intake runners.  So that should give you an idea on how far whatever you stick in there needs to go.  This is the one that is hard to clean and usually gets restricted or blocked completely.  It makes a slight curve, a short distance in from the EGR valve.  So you will have to use something flexible to poke in there to clean it.  I have used a thicker piece of solid wire.  I sprayed in the passage with carb cleaner (I usually use brake cleaner, but I was out), poked the wire in the hole a few times, to loosen the stuff up and/or break through the restriction, then blew compressed air into the passage.  I did this numerous times and used about a can and a half of carb cleaner...until I wasn't getting much blowback and what was blowing back was relatively clean carb cleaner.  After doing this the engine will smoke A LOT, while it burns all the crap you blew into the intake.  Another alternative is to pull the intake off and clean it....might be easier/faster to do that.  Some of the intakes are 2-piece, so you can take them apart and it should make them a little easier to clean.

[fourwheeler]

Ok I'll try this today. I'll let you know what I find and end up with.

[fourwheeler]

ok the tube is now clean,took two hours just to get through that. The intake ports have been cleaned as well as the spot just behind the throttle body. It's done 8 cycles of key on and driving. Light and code gone. But now it surges while driving and seems to have lost power. I'm going to check the o2 sensor this morning. I figure with all the junk I pushed into the system it had to get some of it. Question is can I use a throttle body cleaner on it along with a brass wire brush to clean it without harming it? I'm thinking that might also be idle problem and the surgering that was there prior to egr service. Thoughts anyone?

[fourwheeler]

Ok four day update. Check engine light is still out and no codes being thrown at all. But it's still running rough at idle and wants to almost stall then. going down the road it's fine. Thoughts?

[skyhiranger]

Have you checked the timing?  The spec is probably 5*.  And the distributor should be a near the center of the adjustment range, when it is set at 5*.
Have you checked the rotor position on the distributor shaft?  It is possible with some rotors to put them on in the wrong position (they will fit on the shaft in all 3 positions).  Check out the following thread, I have some pics on there that should help you verify it is in the correct position.  http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,100397.0.html
Have you verified the crank to cam timing is correct (meaning you are not off a tooth on the timing belt)?  It sounds like it has idled bad ever since you have had it, so the previous owner(s) may have changed the timing belt and got off a tooth.
Have you checked and adjusted the TPS, to make sure it is good and adjusted correctly?  Have you checked all the other sensors (IAT, MAF, etc.) to make sure they all test within spec?

[fourwheeler]

The IAC checked out at 12.8 (11-14) even though it checked fine,could there still be a problem considering all the gunk that was in the EGR tube and the throttle body? Couldn't find my feeler gauges so I couldn't check that. I did find a bad heater hose and seeing as the IAC needs hot water I'm going to give it a good run tomorrow and see what happens. Another thing I noticed is that when I go to take off in 1st it gives a little shudder.

[skyhiranger]

The IAC checked out at 12.8 (11-14) even though it checked fine,could there still be a problem considering all the gunk that was in the EGR tube and the throttle body? Couldn't find my feeler gauges so I couldn't check that. I did find a bad heater hose and seeing as the IAC needs hot water I'm going to give it a good run tomorrow and see what happens. Another thing I noticed is that when I go to take off in 1st it gives a little shudder.

Any gunk that was in the EGR passages and had been loosened up should have passed through the engine by now and not be affecting anything.  When I cleaned the EGR passages on mine, I pushed a lot, and I mean a lot, of gunk into the intake.  It smoked very heavily for proably a good mile or so, then once it got everything burnt off, it didn't smoke anymore and has continued to run fine.
Is the CEL staying off now?  If so, I'd say the EGR system is ok.
The shudder is probably the clutch ( I guess you have a 5 speed, you haven't said).  I have one that does that too.....the clutch and/or flywheel needs to be looked at, but it hasn't bothered me enough yet to drop the tranny.  If I don't rev the engine too much (like keeping it at a constant 800 RPMs or so), when letting out on the clutch, it won't shudder.
I'd check out all the other sensors and make sure they are all adjusted to spec and let us know what you find.

[ScotY]

I did find a bad heater hose and seeing as the IAC needs hot water I'm going to give it a good run tomorrow and see what happens.

Does the IAC actually NEED hot water to function properly?  From what I've read so far, it doesn't sound like it does.

Any updates on solving your problems?

[IanL]

Does the IAC actually NEED hot water to function properly?  From what I've read so far, it doesn't sound like it does.

Any updates on solving your problems?

My theory is that that hot water supply is not for the IAC, it's for the thermo-wax fast-idle air valve, which shuts when warmup is complete.  If it doesn't get hot water, it would stay always open, and give a very high warm idle.

[Surly]

Ok four day update. Check engine light is still out and no codes being thrown at all. But it's still running rough at idle and wants to almost stall then. going down the road it's fine. Thoughts?

This kind of problem can be caused by burned valves and/or low compression. Have you adjusted your valve lash and done a compression test? What are the numbers?  (Sorry if this info has already been posted... I didn't read the whole thread.)

[ScotY]

My theory is that that hot water supply is not for the IAC, it's for the thermo-wax fast-idle air valve, which shuts when warmup is complete.  If it doesn't get hot water, it would stay always open, and give a very high warm idle.

I'm not sure if all year Sidekicks are the same but on mine, I am pretty sure there are separate lines going from the thermowax device, then onto the intake tube, and IAC. Can't remember in what order it goes but you could bypass any of those items if desired.

[Surly]

This kind of problem can be caused by burned valves and/or low compression. Have you adjusted your valve lash and done a compression test? What are the numbers?

  Yoo hoo... any updates? 

[IanL]

I'm not sure if all year Sidekicks are the same but on mine, I am pretty sure there are separate lines going from the thermowax device, then onto the intake tube, and IAC. Can't remember in what order it goes but you could bypass any of those items if desired.

Done some research, and I now think the hot water supply to the IAC valve is to prevent icing on cold, wet days, the reason being that air is expanding through the IAC valve, and it cools as it expands.  If it cools lower than freezing temperature, and isn't bone dry, ice will be deposited in the air passage, and prevent idling.

So I wouldn't recommend bypassing that water supply.

[fuzzy1]

Just when I get my Samurai all squared away I bought a 95 Sidekick 1.6 16 valve. It idled a little rough so I did a tune-up on it. Idles bad,but runs good down the road. I did notice that the fireing order was different. Instead of 1 3 4 2 mine is 1 2 4 3. If I put it to the correct fireing order it has no power at and backfires through the intake. I have a code 51 EGR,pulled the EGR vavle and cleaned it,did the vacum test on it out of the truck and put it back in and cleared the code. then today light came back on again,tried a vacum test while in the truck and no movement of the valve. New one will be here tomorrow. But have no idea why it idles like crap and the different fireing order. Any Ideas?

The difference on the 16v isn't the firing order, it's still 1342... but on a 16v the dizzy spins counterclockwise, not clockwise like on an 8v 1.6 or 1.3. If you look at the way the 16v dizzy housing is sorta reversed, this makes sense since it's on the driver side of the engine, not passenger side. hth

Fuzz

[fourwheeler]

Ok I've gone through a few more tests,found the vsv for the egr not working. I have one from 1.6 8v will that work?
What can I use to clean the maf sensor with? Is throttle body cleaner ok?
got a code today from running the diagnostic,it was for the ats. Pulled it and couldn't see anything wrong,will run an ohm test tomorrow. the idle is steady now,but engine still shakes the whole truck. Ran it out to Ohio weekend before last. It doesn't like inclines at 70mph in 5th gear,drops fast. Fuel milelage also sucked at 19mpg.

[ZUKIMON]

Now it's starting to sort of sound like the timing keyway on the crank is either wallowed out or the key is being mashed and the valve timing is off.

[fourwheeler]

Timing holds at 5 and all the marks line up. And there is no clatter either.

[skyhiranger]

I use brake cleaner to clean the MAF sensor and let it air dry.  Brake cleaner doesn't leave any residue behind, like other cleaners do.  Also, I don't clean it unless the engine is cold (been sitting overnight).
Did you do a compression check?
Have you adjusted the valves?
Sounds like you have checked some of the sensors, have you checked/adjusted all of them?
I know that both VSVs are not the same between the 8Vs and the 16Vs....I was thinking maybe one was the same and one wasn't.  I guess if nothing else, if the vacuum hose hookups are the same, they operate the same, and they test out to within spec, then they should interchange....but I am pretty sure they aren't/won't.

[fourwheeler]

Could a ad groud cause this ?

[Surly]

Could a ad groud cause this ?

Rough idle?  Not likely.

Have you adjusted the valves and done a compression check?

[fourwheeler]

Haven't touched the valves as there is no noise coming from them. No compression test done yet either, I figured if anything would be wrong there Three cylnders wouldn't allow me to 80mph.

 Latest obesrvance: if I take power up slow to about 2000 rpm it will all the sudden drop off then return and if held there it will continue doing that. There is no extra drain on chargeing system,but po had let the thermo leak down on alt, Fixed that. At low speed about 40 mph I feel the same thing,but because of speed I'm figureing it can't drop as fast or as low. I just checked my parts listings and see the coil and igniter are the same between  both my 1.6's the 8 valve efi on the Sami's 1.3 and the sidekicks 16 valve. To me it feels like an electrical problem like maybe coil breaking down or not saturateing enough. Alt is putting out 14.3 volts but don't know yet about the amps. Any ideas along this train of thought?

[skyhiranger]

Haven't touched the valves as there is no noise coming from them. No compression test done yet either, I figured if anything would be wrong there Three cylnders wouldn't allow me to 80mph.

 Latest obesrvance: if I take power up slow to about 2000 rpm it will all the sudden drop off then return and if held there it will continue doing that. There is no extra drain on chargeing system,but po had let the thermo leak down on alt, Fixed that. At low speed about 40 mph I feel the same thing,but because of speed I'm figureing it can't drop as fast or as low. I just checked my parts listings and see the coil and igniter are the same between  both my 1.6's the 8 valve efi on the Sami's 1.3 and the sidekicks 16 valve. To me it feels like an electrical problem like maybe coil breaking down or not saturateing enough. Alt is putting out 14.3 volts but don't know yet about the amps. Any ideas along this train of thought?

A snip from one of my other posts in another thread......

Before the IAC swap and the idle adjustment....if I would barely push on the throttle, with it out of gear, just sitting there, it would miss and the idle would drop everytime it reached 1800 RPM, and if I kept the pedal steady it would start reving again until it reached 1800, then drop again.  But there was only a very precise throttle position it would do that at....any harder push of the throttle and it would rev just fine past 1800 and not miss a bit.  Now that I made the two adjustments noted above, there is no idle drop at 1800, when reving the engine just sitting there.
I did discover something else, during my testing.  If I unplugged the coolant temp sensor, it would run fine (no stumbling, no hesitating while driving).  So thinking that was the problem, I swapped on another sensor I had around here.  Still stumbles.  I tested both sensors, and the original one is slightly out of spec at operating temp. (which seems to be the only time it stumbles with light throttle pressure......during warmup today, I didn't notice it stumbling).  And the replacement one was just barely out of spec at operating temp.....so that still may be my issue....I have to find a sensor that tests within spec and try it.

It is from this thread.....
http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,101461.0/all.html

A lot of good reading in that thread.

[Surly]

Haven't touched the valves as there is no noise coming from them.

Adjusting valves is part of the regular tune-up process and should be done every so-many-thousand miles, whether they're making noise or not. Valves that are too tight can cause rough idle, too. 

[fourwheeler]

I thought the valves would loosen with wear,not tighten.
Anyway I had the alt checked out today. Not sure how good these are,but when they loaded mine today(high beams & heater fan on high) it showed during test No Load 14.52V -1.0A, Loaded 14.21V -21.1A and idle dropped to around 450rpm. but it said chargeing system output normal. To me that seems strange that it would pull that much and still say normal. These are only 55 amp units right?

[Surly]

I thought the valves would loosen with wear,not tighten.

I used to think the same thing, byt the reverse is true. As the valve starts to "tulip" and the seat face wears, the clearance at the adjuster decreases. It's an OHC thing. 

[fourwheeler]

ok as soon as things melt here I'll look into it. What are your thoughts about the alt?

[fourwheeler]

Two other things. Sometimes when I start it up and for a few minutes afterwards I smell gas. I pulled the vacum line off the pressure regulator and blocked it. Should there be any change in idle or running?

[fourwheeler]

   update: yesterday I went to the local u-pull yard. Before I left I checked with West texas Suzuki for the parts and years I was looking for. Everything came from 97 Tracker 1.6 16v. IAC valve,fuel regulator and the two VSR switches for EGR and Canister. Changed all but the regulator. findings the Idle now doesn't drop down to 350-400 when coming to a stop,power seems to be better and no smell of raw fuel upon start-up. Idle hols at 850-900 still surges at lower speeds and It still shakes while idleing although not as bad. O)ne thing that hasn't changed yet is the fact that when I let off the skinny pedal to coast it feels like i just the engine off,speed drops if I'm still in gear. And when I hit the pedal again it feels like a hole shot with an automatic. Anothing I noticed is that sometimes when I'm trying to get it moving faster up an incline and press the pedal further it does nothing. But when I start to let it up,I hit a sweet spot and RPM and speed increase. To me it's almost like haveing too large a 4V on a V8. Dump to much fuel then let off and works fine.  Toughts?

[skyhiranger]

   update: yesterday I went to the local u-pull yard. Before I left I checked with West texas Suzuki for the parts and years I was looking for. Everything came from 97 Tracker 1.6 16v. IAC valve,fuel regulator and the two VSR switches for EGR and Canister. Changed all but the regulator. findings the Idle now doesn't drop down to 350-400 when coming to a stop,power seems to be better and no smell of raw fuel upon start-up. Idle hols at 850-900 still surges at lower speeds and It still shakes while idleing although not as bad. O)ne thing that hasn't changed yet is the fact that when I let off the skinny pedal to coast it feels like i just the engine off,speed drops if I'm still in gear. And when I hit the pedal again it feels like a hole shot with an automatic. Anothing I noticed is that sometimes when I'm trying to get it moving faster up an incline and press the pedal further it does nothing. But when I start to let it up,I hit a sweet spot and RPM and speed increase. To me it's almost like haveing too large a 4V on a V8. Dump to much fuel then let off and works fine.  Toughts?

The IAC change is probably what fixed the idle drop issue.

Checked/adjusted your TPS lately?

[fourwheeler]

I did once and couldn't get it perfect,but very close. If I play with the idle screw on TB I can smooth it a little more,but then I get driving problems,like a shudder when taking off and even worse fuel mileage. this IAC is working much better as it does compensate when I turn the idle screw. I just don't think I've hit the right combo yet. When I first started useing the idle screw it was all the way in. Is there any set point it should be set at?

[skyhiranger]

I did once and couldn't get it perfect,but very close. If I play with the idle screw on TB I can smooth it a little more,but then I get driving problems,like a shudder when taking off and even worse fuel mileage. this IAC is working much better as it does compensate when I turn the idle screw. I just don't think I've hit the right combo yet. When I first started useing the idle screw it was all the way in. Is there any set point it should be set at?

If the TPS isn't within spec, then you either have to adjust it to within spec or replace it......"very close" is not good enough.  A faulty or misadjusted TPS can cause running/driving issues like you are experiencing.  It provides throttle feedback to the ECM, so the ECM can adjust the fuel accordingly.  If it is not adjusted correctly, then the ECM will either provide too much or not enough fuel and it can result in a poorly running engine.

50% duty cycle is where the IAC is supposed to be set.

[IanL]

See 2nd post in this thread in the FAQ for "Set the IAC Duty":

http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,31656.0.html

There is also a post about cleaning out the TPS in the FAQ - may have a bearing.....

[fourwheeler]

Finally think I've found the problem. With the engine running I pulled each plug wire off at the motor. number2 made no difference when it was pulled,all the others almost stalled the engine. Checking ohm resistance on the wire and it was 3.92 with the meter set at 20k on the ohm scale. heading out to get a injector tester next.

[fourwheeler]

Ok it's what I feared,number 2 cylnder has no compression at all. I checked it and number 1 and that only has a 130lbs. Looks like it's rebuild time or buy a new one. If I go the in and out shot anybody recomend a good place to get one?

[fourwheeler]

Remembered something else. I also have a slight popping from the tail pipe,possible burnt valve.

[ScotY]

Ouch, sorry to hear that. At least it does sound like you got all the other problems sorted and now it's just a matter of a rebuild or replacement.

[fourwheeler]

Yes everything else is working now. I'm actually surprised at how this thing runs on just three cylnders. Have to wait till income tax to fix it,but it's held together this long. Another few weeks shouldn't be a problem.

[ScotY]

I would call Sean Devinney for a motor.  I have no idea where he keeps all his stuff, but I swear anything I ask for he seems to have laying around somewhere.  His prices are good and he's a good guy to deal with.  He's down the coast from you so shipping shouldn't be too steep.  Otherwise, there's JDM motors on ebay for about $700 plus shipping.  If you go that route, I'd probably just use it as a long block and use all your now known good parts on the intake side since the JDM intake is different.  I assume this will work fine but am not 100% certain.

[fourwheeler]

I think I got lucky.Checked the valve lash this morning and found the front valve of #6 group way to tight,couldn't even get .002 under it. Backed it off to .006 and it seems to feel alot better, even at idle. I'll run it for a few days like this(going to get snow) and see what happens.

[ScotY]

Would valve lash being too tight hurt performance and/or
cause some of your problems?  Curious to know what you've discovered.

[fourwheeler]

As tight as it was I doubt if it was closeing completely. Thus giving me the dead compression in cylinder #2. Forgot to bring compression guage so I didn't check that afterwards. It still shakes at idle and can feel the surge going down the road,but nothing like it was. After it stops snowing here and a tad warmer I'll re-check #2 and see what it shows then.

[fourwheeler]

ok leak down test finally done. Number definatly has a burnt exhaust vavle,the air really cleaned out the tail pipe. Now the big question, it has 181743 showing on the odometer,number 1 had 130lb compression,no smoking either and still has plenty of power in 4th gear and will cruise in 5th gear at 80. Could it be possible to just swap out the head right now and have it survive awhile longer?

[Surly]

Could it be possible to just swap out the head right now and have it survive awhile longer?

A leakdown test (with oil) will tell you how bad the rings are.