diesel vs gas

[Tim]

let the debate begin all around daily driver that will see about 300 miles a week

[bbm715]

Gas.
Towing something 300 miles a week?  Diesel.

[bcrewcaptain]

depends on the vehicle...but my little truck being diesel gets about 5mpg better in city/hwy than the same truck in gas version...

[bbm715]

That's a LOT of miles to make up the diesel buy-in penalty 

[Tim]

That's a LOT of miles to make up the diesel buy-in penalty 

what are you talking about? my week goes about 250 to 350 miles depending on if I got to chapel hill or not..

[catfishblues]

Get a Honda. Drive the Sammi to the trails. 300mi a week is going to end up being a LARGE fuel bill, and that stuff's going up! 

[Tim]

Get a Honda. Drive the Sammi to the trails. 300mi a week is going to end up being a LARGE fuel bill, and that stuff's going up! 

I have a honda it's alright....but having 3 cars would be killer I had an 06 f150 crewcab and it got 14 mpg my s10 gets around 16 or so I would like to just get a full size again

[bcrewcaptain]

I have a honda it's alright....but having 3 cars would be killer I had an 06 f150 crewcab and it got 14 mpg my s10 gets around 16 or so I would like to just get a full size again

I get that in the excursion with a mix of hwy/city driving...hmmmm

[bbm715]

Diesel buy in refers to the $2k more you will pay for a diesel truck.  5mpg better, even at the same price as gas, would take a long time to make up.   With the price difference it will take longer.
Unless you are planning on doing a lot of hauling, a ton of miles, or tow something large - go gas.

[ScotY]

For a new truck, to get the diesel option, it's quite a bit more than $2000...maybe more like $4-6k?

Anyway, I drive around in an '06 Dodge 4wd diesel and get about 13-14 mpg on average, mostly what you guys would call city driving.  My opinion is diesel is a superior engine design overall.  Financially, as said earlier, if you're not towing (or until someone comes out with a smaller diesel pickup), it's a poor decision.  One possible exception is if you drive a lot of highway miles and you can find an older full-size diesel.  Don't know about Ford or Chevy, but the older Ram trucks are suppossed to easily get over 20 mpg.

Diesel used to be much cheaper than gas a long time ago.  In some parts of the country, it still is.  I was in Los Angeles (of all places) this summer and diesel was $2.69 and regular gas was $2.87.  Diesel is right about $4 here  and it's always more than gas.  Maybe diesel is cheaper if you buy it at truck stops?  Luckily for me, I don't really drive that many miles.  Still spend about $300/month on fuel though. 

[durnzuki]

I say buy a Diesel.  Yes the fuel is higher, but you will get lots better milage.  If you get 15mpg average out of a gasser you are doing good.  You can get around 20 easy with most diesels.   I have an older 7.3 and get 20 unloaded and around 13 pulling my 40ft. trailer.  My son has a 2008 F250 with the 6.4 diesel and it gets 13 on the highway and 8 pulling a 12 ft. lawnmower trailer though.  I think if I was gonna get a new truck it would be a Dodge, I like the Cummins alot more than any other engine make right now.

[bbm715]

OK, lets do the easy math.
Diesel trucks cost an extra $2k (around here USED) purchase price.
300 miles a week is roughly about 1300 miles a month.
1300/15mpg = 87 gallons of gas per month.
1300/20mpg = 65 gallons of diesel per month
87g * $2.60 = $226 per month gas
65g * $2.90 = $188 per month diesel
Savings of $38 per month diesel over gas.  At $38 a month it will only take you 52 months (4 1/2 years) driving to make up the initial purchase price.  After that it's all gravy.
But wait, diesels are costlier to service.  This was also assuming you were buying the truck with cash and not having to pay the extra $ per month on the loan and all that interest for the extra $2k.
So you are absolutely right.  Go with the black smoke belching, can't pass on the highway diesel as you daily driver.  Everyone keeps their truck 10 years right?  By then you will have saved enough over buying the gasser that you can afford the stupid expensive lift pump that will have gone out.

And yes I know that for a new truck the diesel penalty is higher.  But really, if you are going to have a $1000 a month payment on one of these new monsters is it really a penalty to go $1100 and get the diesel? 

If you are going to WORK your truck or go a bizillion miles with it - get a diesel.
Otherwise go get yourself a 1/2 ton and enjoy the car like ride and responsiveness.

[bcrewcaptain]

find me a gas SUV that can haul the family, and dogs inside, the 26' travel trailer behind it and still get 16mpg and I'll make the switch 

good math though, but you forgot the variables that make having a diesel a little more realistic...

besides, while she drives the 8000lb "black smoke belching diesel"
I have a bike that gets 45mpg, so that makes me even right?

[flashboiler]

good math though, but you forgot the variables that make having a diesel a little more realistic...

True enough!  He forgot the $100 oil changes, the dual $300 batteries, the tires that wear out quickly due to the weight....

 

[bcrewcaptain]

True enough!  He forgot the $100 oil changes, the dual $300 batteries, the tires that wear out quickly due to the weight....

 

nah....$60 an oil change....batteries are $60 each at walmart.. and they NEVER date stamp them...so those 2 will last the life of your truck..tires...well...I bought my truck that was 5 yrs old with the orig tires...don't forget the tire rating increases with weight
each has their pluses, it all depends on yours needs....when I purchased my excursion I had a 6K+ rig/trailer or a camper to pull around as well as needing a truck to haul people/large dogs around in, plus be able to put a 4x8" sheet of something in the back...
limited options/no other options for a "newer" vehicle..and when the gas version gets about half the mileage...it is a no brainer

[bbm715]

I put that diesels were costlier to service 

I'm not bashing diesels, but for what he said a 1/2t gasser would be a LOT cheaper and more fun to drive.

Personally I'm always on the lookout for a cheap 6bt or late 7.3l turbo to swap into my Kaiser M715 5/4 ton truck to replace the 460.  But that truck is a HEAVY worker and it makes sense. 
Daily driver is an '06 Dodge Quad Cab Hemi 4x4 1/2t.  That thing is like driving a freaking car.  Turns and handles great and can seat 6 plus pull the family camper.  I don't really have to watch traffic getting onto the highway because it's really quick.  Generally a lot of fun to drive and I can tow with it too.

[ZUKIMON]

I'll keep my '94 Geo Prizm and get 30 mpg.

If I need to tow something, I'll just ask the owner of the dealership I work at and use a nice newer D-Max.

[Tim]

yall are crazy...

[jtaj77]

I have a diesel because I like to roll the coal. My truck is fun to drive and can tow anything I need to move. It cost more to operate than a gasser most of the time but so does my zuk with 38's. It's not about the money for me. It's about not having to down shift to pass someone or going up a hill when towing.

This is not mine but you get the idea. My doesn't smoke like that, yet. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZbYSgpA6eY

[ObeseFieldMouse]

i drive a diesel jetta.  1.9 tdi.  2006 model.  on the highway i average around 52mpg.  one tank takes me around 550 miles around town, and up to 750 on the highway.  i have loads of power and can go oveer the mountains and stay in 6th gear without it even thinking about it.  cruise control all the way, no downshifting.

diesel all the way!!!!

ps my jetta will roll coal hahaha

[rockrat]

I have a 2003 Jeta TDI that gets 47MPG. I used to drive 3500 miles a month. It more then paid for itself. 5000 mile oil chages sometimes 6000.

[ZUKIMON]

I used to drive 3500 miles a month.

Dare I ask, why? What in the world were you doing that many miles a month for?

[durnzuki]

You are also forgetting that WHEN you trade it or sell it it is worth more money.  As for being slow,  mine is a slow 7.3 IDI non turbo and it takes off plenty fast enough and will spin the tires at stop lights.   I didnt buy mine to race anybody.  I wanted to be able to tow what ever I hooked up to with out worrying about "Can I haul that".  I have towed a 6000lb load with a 4.3 Blazer and while it pulled anything I wanted to at the time if I had to make a sudden turn to avoid something I was sucking seat cover.  I just got back from towing a 40ft goose neck with two sammis and lots of parts for 500 miles.  I averaged 13 MPG and even had a blown tire on the trailer that I couldnt feel.    I had a 1/2 ton chevy before this and it SUCKED towing,  every time the wind blew it tried to change lanes.

[rockrat]

Dare I ask, why? What in the world were you doing that many miles a month for?

Field engineer, I was on 4-5 different Job sites a day. Everywhere from the Wisconsin border to middle of Indiana and in between.

[ZUKIMON]

Ahh, OK.   You're one of those smarty pants guys!

J/K 

[Tim]

any thoughts on 12 valves?

[jtaj77]

any thoughts on 12 valves?

Greg is the 12 valve guy. It's just as good as any of the other cummins engines. Those trucks can be picked up pretty cheap.

[Whitfield]

My dream diesel

12v / Club Cab / Long bed / 4wd / Black /

Killer dowel pin killed,
No noise in the NV 4500 5-spd (5th gear nut issue repaired)
Steel rear trans case up grade if you tow weight for a living.
Fresh tie rods and ball joints if you are over 100k

20+ MPG /  Fuel plate mods are cheap / engine can easily and CHEAPly overpower the drive line.

down side ~ You can't hear much at stop other then the singing Cummins.

I'd take the same truck in a 2000 - 2002 HO 24v 6 spd but I'm scared of the VP44 Injection pump failure frequency ~ Lift pump is a non issue.

[Tim]

what is the killer dowel pin

[Whitfield]

what is the killer dowel pin

http://www.dieselbombers.com/dodge-truck-cummins-turbo-diesel-forum/4498-killer-dowel-pin-fix.html

During engine assembly, a steel dowel pin is pressed into the block to precisely locate its timing-gear housing. The problem? Over time, vibration can cause the pin to work its way out, and because it's made of steel, there is no working its way through the engine. It becomes the dowel pin of death.

There are a few things that can happen. Option number one: you get extremely lucky and the pin falls through the maze of cam, crank, and injection-pump gears and lands harmlessly in the oil pan or on the bottom of the gear housing-and nothing happens. Total cost for repairs: $0.

Option number two: the pin falls, and it comes in contact with the cam gear and smashes into the gear housing on the front of your engine. When this happens, it is steel versus aluminum-and steel wins out. The housing will crack open or lose a big chunk right where the dowel pin was forced into the housing. If this happens, you'll wake up the next morning and notice the Exxon Valdez in your driveway. Your total repair bill, including labor, will be approximately $1,000.

Option number three is the killer: the pin falls and munches up the cam gear or breaks it off completely. The valves will then smack into the pistons, creating a junkyard in your combustion chambers. Scraping metal doesn't work nearly as well as #2 diesel, and this can take out your heads, valves, and pistons-and possibly your engine block, making it impossible to overbore and rebuild. If this happens, there are almost no parts you can salvage, and your only option is to either to sell the truck for parts or pick up a new engine to the tune of at least a few thousands bucks. When option number three happens, you'll be left stranded on the side of the road.


Our '97 Dodge Ram cost $5,000, and we were really worried about option number three because we knew buying another truck might be a cheaper option than getting it fixed. While it may only happen to a few percent of Dodges, the killer dowel pin (KDP) can strike at any time, which is a huge worry for those using the truck for a business or driving long distances.

There are a dozen companies out there selling KDP repair kits (approximately $50) that consist of a new bolt, gaskets, and a tab to hold in the dowel pin so it can't work loose. The labor involved takes about two to three hours for a shop or about an afternoon if you are mechanically inclined and can do the repair in your driveway.

Basically, you have to remove all accessories from the front of your engine so you can get your timing-gear cover off, put in the dowel-retaining tab, then put everything back on. It's labor-intensive but certainly not too difficult. We meant to do this ourselves, but the narrow streets of Venice, California, are the only space we have to work on our truck. Finally, we realized that $200 of shop labor was better than the total loss of the truck and took it to Redline Diesel Performance in Corona, California, to have the dowel pin fixed. Now we can sleep at night.

[Whitfield]

http://quad4x4.com/Dodge%2094-04%20NV4500.htm

"Losing" fifth gear is a common complaint from trailer towing 1994-1998 Dodge Ram owners and those with enhanced horsepower Cummins engines.  The problem is less frequent on 1999 and newer trucks with the revised factory 5th gear nut.  While the nut is often blamed, the part failing is really the factory mainshaft.


Due to a worldwide shortage of genuine New Venture parts (1994-2005 Cummins powered Dodge Ram truck)  we will no longer be able to rebuild your NV4500 transmission as of December 2007.    We will resume rebuilding NV4500 transmissions if and when quality parts again become available!

[jtaj77]

All these "problem" parts are not as bad as you would think. Just remember you only hear about the bad ones.

[AJMBLAZER]

Diesel...only gas engine I own anymore is my weedwacker...and that's a 2 stroke.