16V won't run right ???

[AKChappy]

I swapped engines from a 1995 Tracker into a 1994 Sidekick. At first it didn't want to start. Then it tried to start for 1/10 of a second or so while cranking over. Finally it started up and idled. As soon as I tried to rev it up, it died. Whole process started over.
I got it to run and rev up by turning the switch on and off about 4-5 times. I thought this just meant I needed to prime the fuel. So I start out on a test drive. I made it about 100 yards down the road. It died and wouldn't start.
I pushed it back to the house and most of the way into the garage (big lip at front of garage). I tried again to start it, it started right up and into the garage it went.
I haven't tried a second test drive yet. I don't want to get stranded around the corner at midnight.
Any ideas anyone? What would or could cause these symptoms.
I checked the crank/cam timing and put on a new timing belt while it was out.


AK Chappy

[IanL]

Could be as simple as a connector not seated properly, and making intermittent contact.

[AKChappy]

I did think of that. I looked at all the connectors. They appear to be seated good.

AK Chappy

[cliffhanger]

Did you have it running long enough to set the timing?

[AKChappy]

I did a quick timing by ear once it was in. It hummed real good and smooth. I backed out of the garage and started down the road. It just died and wouldn't restart.
I pushed it back to the house. I decided to try it again. It started. I went out today to try again. It will intermittently start. The CEL is on. I tried to read the codes as per the Chilton's manual and it wouldn't flash anything at all. It just stayed on steady. Bad computer?

AK Chappy

[AKChappy]

I just thought about this too. When I swapped motors, I left the fuel injection bodies on.
There appeared to be some physical differences, but the connectors all lined up and fit. The Geo had one extra sensor on the back with a vacuum connection. The Suzuki didn't.
I also remember that I didn't loosen the valves when I changed the timing belt.
I will dig into it tonight after work and reset all timing from scratch. Including the valves. I will post the results when I am finished.

AK Chappy

[IanL]

The CEL is on. I tried to read the codes as per the Chilton's manual and it wouldn't flash anything at all. It just stayed on steady. Bad computer?

By the book, it's a bad computer.

[skyhiranger]

The CEL is on. I tried to read the codes as per the Chilton's manual and it wouldn't flash anything at all. It just stayed on steady. Bad computer?

AK Chappy

If the light is on all the time and won't flash any codes with the proper pins shorted in the connector up by the battery.....then it is probably because the mileage switch under the dash needs to be flipped the other direction.

I just thought about this too. When I swapped motors, I left the fuel injection bodies on.
There appeared to be some physical differences, but the connectors all lined up and fit. The Geo had one extra sensor on the back with a vacuum connection. The Suzuki didn't.
I also remember that I didn't loosen the valves when I changed the timing belt.
I will dig into it tonight after work and reset all timing from scratch. Including the valves. I will post the results when I am finished.

AK Chappy

The vacuum connection on the back of the intake manifold is for the auto tranny vacuum connection.  I'll guess the Geo had and auto tranny behind it and the Suzuki had a manual tranny behind it, right?

As long as the crank to cam timing is correct (you are not off a tooth), and the distributor is installed correctly, then you can set the distributor adjustment to the center of the adjustment range and the timing will be close enough for it to run and not die constantly.
I'd say since it will start and run it is not a timing issue.  A timing issue would make it either not run at all or run crappy all the time.....not start and run normally, then run crappy and/or die.



I'd say the dying issue is fuel related.  I'd say you have........

1) a partially clogged filter.....either the pump strainer or the fuel filter on the frame rail (which is why it ran after you turned the key on and off a few times.....it pumped enough fuel up to the injector that it would start and run until it started getting fuel starved.  Pull the fuel line off the back of the TB and have someone turn the key on and see that you get a full stream of fuel coming out of the line.  You can also let the gas squirt into a container to see if you are getting rust/dirt/crap/etc. coming out of the fuel line.
2) a faulty injector (not firing correctly and/or partially clogged).  Pull the injector out of the TB and  use some carb cleaner to clean it up.  You could also test the injector using a noid light test kit that you can probably borrow from an auto parts store.  Or, even easier, if you have a spare injector just swap it in.
3) a bad ECM (not firing the injector correctly).  Swap the ECM out for another one.  You could try the one out of the other vehicle, it may or may not be compatible, but it would be worth a shot.
4) intermittently working fuel pump.  Have someone turn the key on, while you listen at the gas tank filler hole, to see if the pump runs for 3 or 4 seconds each time the key is turned to the "run" position.  Try this several times.

[AKChappy]

If the light is on all the time and won't flash any codes with the proper pins shorted in the connector up by the battery.....then it is probably because the mileage switch under the dash needs to be flipped the other direction.

Uhhh, Not sure what you are talking about here?

The vacuum connection on the back of the intake manifold is for the auto tranny vacuum connection.  I'll guess the Geo had and auto tranny behind it and the Suzuki had a manual tranny behind it, right?

Nope, both of them had auto transmissions. I did find the vacuum line for this. Oops. 

As long as the crank to cam timing is correct (you are not off a tooth), and the distributor is installed correctly, then you can set the distributor adjustment to the center of the adjustment range and the timing will be close enough for it to run and not die constantly.
I'd say since it will start and run it is not a timing issue.  A timing issue would make it either not run at all or run crappy all the time.....not start and run normally, then run crappy and/or die.

I'd say the dying issue is fuel related.  I'd say you have........

1) a partially clogged filter.....either the pump strainer or the fuel filter on the frame rail (which is why it ran after you turned the key on and off a few times.....it pumped enough fuel up to the injector that it would start and run until it started getting fuel starved.  Pull the fuel line off the back of the TB and have someone turn the key on and see that you get a full stream of fuel coming out of the line.  You can also let the gas squirt into a container to see if you are getting rust/dirt/crap/etc. coming out of the fuel line.
2) a faulty injector (not firing correctly and/or partially clogged).  Pull the injector out of the TB and  use some carb cleaner to clean it up.  You could also test the injector using a noid light test kit that you can probably borrow from an auto parts store.  Or, even easier, if you have a spare injector just swap it in.
3) a bad ECM (not firing the injector correctly).  Swap the ECM out for another one.  You could try the one out of the other vehicle, it may or may not be compatible, but it would be worth a shot.
4) intermittently working fuel pump.  Have someone turn the key on, while you listen at the gas tank filler hole, to see if the pump runs for 3 or 4 seconds each time the key is turned to the "run" position.  Try this several times.

I reset the timing and tension on the engine. I verified it with a timing light. It is all good.
I watched the valves, and when the timing marks on the crank and cam are both lined up #4 is on compression. Is that normal?? That is the first engine I have ever seen that was like that.

I disconnected the fuel line at the frame by the engine. Lots of fuel when turned on, nice and clean. I pulled the pressure regulator off of the rail. Again, good fuel flow. I can hear the fuel pump run and hear it pressurize at the rail. I can even hear it shut off at the rail.

Next, I am going to try the other computer from the Geo. I will call him tomorrow and try to get it.
How do I find out if they are compatible? Is it possible that I fried the computer working on the engine? The battery was disconnected the entire time, so there was no power available.


AK Chappy

[skyhiranger]

Uhhh, Not sure what you are talking about here?
There is a switch under the dash to reset the CEL when it comes on because of a mileage interval.  The switch is located between the steering column and the drivers side speaker.  It is on the backside of the dash, usually just above the metal tube crossbrace on the lower portion of the dash.  You usually can't see the switch, but you can feel it, if you know what you are feeling for.  Do a search on here on resetting the CEL and mileage switch and you should find some threads that explain and/or show where the switch is located.  It is not an off/on switch, it is a 2 way switch.....so to "reset" the CEL, because it came on because the odometer reached a specified mileage, you slide the switch to the opposite position and leave it there.
Once you get the CEL to flash codes, that should help diagnose what the problem is.


Nope, both of them had auto transmissions. I did find the vacuum line for this. Oops. 
If both of them are 8V engines and had factory auto trannys behind them, then they both will have a brown colored vacuum port screwed into one of the runners on the intake manifold.  The vacuum port is located directly behind the TB.  Maybe you were talking about a different vacuum connection.


I reset the timing and tension on the engine. I verified it with a timing light. It is all good.
I watched the valves, and when the timing marks on the crank and cam are both lined up #4 is on compression. Is that normal?? That is the first engine I have ever seen that was like that.
What do you mean by lined up?  If the crank mark is at 12:00 and the cam mark is at 6:00, then the distributor rotor should be pointing at the #1 tower and the #1 cylinder should be at TDC on the compression stroke.  If the crank mark is at 12:00 and the cam mark is at 12:00, then the distributor rotor should be pointing at the #4 tower and the #4 cylinder should be at TDC on the compression stroke.


I disconnected the fuel line at the frame by the engine. Lots of fuel when turned on, nice and clean. I pulled the pressure regulator off of the rail. Again, good fuel flow. I can hear the fuel pump run and hear it pressurize at the rail. I can even hear it shut off at the rail.
Well, that sounds good.  I am wondering if the pump is shutting off at some point after the engine starts?  Gonna be a little harder to figure that one out. 
It could still be a bad ECM shutting the pump and/or injector off.....or it could be a bad injector.  I am guessing bad ECM, at this point.

Next, I am going to try the other computer from the Geo. I will call him tomorrow and try to get it.
How do I find out if they are compatible? Is it possible that I fried the computer working on the engine? The battery was disconnected the entire time, so there was no power available.
I doubt you damaged the ECM while you were working on it....especially since you had the battery disconnected.
Look at the numbers on the ECM.....33920-xxxxx.  If the "xxxxx" numbers are the same, then they are compatible.  They may be compatible even if the numbers aren't the same....do a google search for tracker and sidekick ECM numbers and you should be able to find some charts that show what ECM numbers work for what years.

AK Chappy

[AKChappy]

I will check for the switch. Thanks for the help on that one.

Nope, both of them had auto transmissions. I did find the vacuum line for this. Oops. 
If both of them are 8V engines and had factory auto trannys behind them, then they both will have a brown colored vacuum port screwed into one of the runners on the intake manifold.  The vacuum port is located directly behind the TB.  Maybe you were talking about a different vacuum connection.

I bet I have an 8V TBI that was on a 16V motor. It has the brown screw in vacuum connection, but is definitely a 16V motor.


As far as the timing, you are dead on. When the cam mark is at 6:00, it is on #1 compression.

Thanks and will keep it updated.
AK Chappy

[skyhiranger]

Crap, I really need to pay attention better.  For some reason I had 8V TBI in my mind, when you clearly stated you had a 16V.  Sorry about that.

All the info I gave you before still appies, except for.....16V engines have 4 fuel injectors mounted on a fuel rail, vs. the single TB fuel injector in an 8V.  So, of course, to test swap injectors there are 4 instead of 1 to deal with.

Here is what you likely have.......
A 16V from a 2 door Tracker that had an auto tranny (all the auto trannys in the 2 doors were 3 speeds....hence the vacuum port on the intake manifold for the tranny). 
A 16V from a 4 door Sidekick with an auto tranny (all the auto trannys in the 4 doors were 4 speeds....hence no need for a vacuum port on the intake manifold, since they are computer controlled and not vacuum controlled).

So, that being said, put a cap on the vacuum connection on the intake manifold.  That will likely not solve your running issue, but it will keep it from being a vacuum leak.

I bet I have an 8V TBI that was on a 16V motor. It has the brown screw in vacuum connection, but is definitely a 16V motor.

Impossible.  All 1.6, 16V engines had MPFI; all 1.6, 8V engines had TBI.  They are 2 completely different injection systems and the intake manifolds will not interchange between 8V and 16V heads.

[skyhiranger]

Here is a link on how to short the pins and read the codes, once you flip the switch under the dash to keep the CEL from being on steady.

http://bbs.zuwharrie.com/content/topic,27886.0.html

[AKChappy]

Alright!! Progress. I think. 
I found the mileage switch and switched positions. Now when I turn the ignition on without a jumper in there. My CEL flashes, I hear relays clicking on/off and the fuel pump will not shut off and runs with the clicks. In other words the pump runs on/off/on/off with the clicks.
I tried to jumper the pins and get codes, but it was too hard to try to read with the other flashes and clicks.
I am going to change the fuel pressure regulator first to see if that is the first problem. Maybe then I can read the codes and go to the next problem.

Thanks skyhiranger for the help!

AK Chappy

[IanL]

My CEL flashes, I hear relays clicking on/off and the fuel pump will not shut off and runs with the clicks. In other words the pump runs on/off/on/off with the clicks.
I tried to jumper the pins and get codes, but it was too hard to try to read with the other flashes and clicks.
I am going to change the fuel pressure regulator first to see if that is the first problem. Maybe then I can read the codes and go to the next problem.

That clicking should not be happening.  It is usually caused by leaky capacitors in the ECM.  If that's the case, the ECM should be repaired urgently - the leakage destroys the board if left.